RoP:D questions

[Adauli]

Reading a bit trough RoP:D I wondered about some things:

1. Shouldn't the Supernatural Methods and Powers (RoP:D 35) be accelerate ability given that the spell guidelines for them even go till 70 where Range, Duration and Target still have to added to it? At last so far I didn't find where it is mentioned that they are accelerated ability or advance like art.
2. Holy Magic say:

their lab totals must always be halved when learning magic from a Hermetic source, such as a book or Laboratory Text

but how would half the Lab total affect any book? For lab text it is clear that many will have no effect at all as inventing the spell would be the same effort.
3) I suspect

holy magi are treated as Incomprehensible when those who practice normal magic try to understand or duplicate their work.

means Laboratory Text and probably Art summa & tractatus of the holy magic user. How it is written it also could be interpreted as all summa and tractatus even about normal ability (like Theology) would be incomprehensible for Hermetic magic user but teaching the same would be at no penalty.

The example at RoP:D 46 is also strange why would someone try a spell of level 30 when with rolling a single die he only reached a end score of 15 ... this means that the maximum score he ever could reach in this aura would be 24 if he just rolled a 1 for the 15.
How could someone assume to roll a 10 and have a divine aura 6 higher then it is actually? Given that a RoP:D 10 say that divine aura of 6 or higher are usually only at pilgrimage sites.

[ExarKun]

Hi,
I will try to answer correctly but some other people may have additional informations.

1. I'm not sure : the power of those methods&powers lies in the ceremony ability. Alone, any method&power (which are not accelerated abilities) from any realm is pretty weak (Faerie, infernal and divine cases in point; the magic has not a real equivalent iirrc but offers already so much powers (each supernatural ability may be seen has a method&power combined)).
   IF they were accelerated abilities, with the ceremony ability, they could warp the world more easily than hermetic magic, which kind of destroy the setting.

What is certain if that they are not accelerated by RAW.

2. isn't that errata-ed? I guess they mean learning total too, not only lab totals.

3. it seems clear to me due to the "those who practice normal magic" sentence.

See you next time,

[Adauli]

@ExarKun

Hi,
I will try to answer correctly but some other people may have additional informations.

1. I'm not sure : the power of those methods&powers lies in the ceremony ability. Alone, any method&power (which are not accelerated abilities) from any realm is pretty weak (Faerie, infernal and divine cases in point; the magic has not a real equivalent iirrc but offers already so much powers (each supernatural ability may be seen has a method&power combined)).
   IF they were accelerated abilities, with the ceremony ability, they could warp the world more easily than hermetic magic, which kind of destroy the setting.

What is certain if that they are not accelerated by RAW.

2. isn't that errata-ed? I guess they mean learning total too, not only lab totals.

3. it seems clear to me due to the "those who practice normal magic" sentence.

See you next time,

1. You know Ceremony is also in RoP:I, RoP:F and AM (Hyperborean) so it is not exclusive to the worshiper of god and not all Holy Tradition have Ceremony. i.e. the Holy Societas Zoroastrians have no Ceremony but have a special spell with a difficult of 50 listed.

2. No Errata at atlas-games.com/arm5/arm5errata.php#AG0278 maybe no one of the forum played a Hermetic Magus with Holy magic after RoP:D came out because of the 15 point penalty in spell casting.

3. What seems clear? For me the question is still open as the only sure thing that would fall in here are Lab texts the rest is in the void of unclearness.

[Berengar]

@Adauli

2. No Errata at atlas-games.com/arm5/arm5errata.php#AG0278 maybe no one of the forum played a Hermetic Magus with Holy magic after RoP:D came out because of the 15 point penalty in spell casting.

This penalty is certainly intended and explained:

@RoP:TD p.67

A holy magus instead learns to call his magic solely with the worship of God. Thus, when casting, holy magi receive any penalties to their magic totals that they would normally accrue when practicing magic without words or gestures. This is usually a –15 penalty, though Virtues like Subtle Magic still apply in these circumstances.

@Adauli

3. What seems clear? For me the question is still open as the only sure thing that would fall in here are Lab texts the rest is in the void of unclearness.

Best read in context:

@RoP:TD p.67

Holy magi must then reinvent all of their formulaic spells using Holy Magic before they can cast them. Holy versions of spells are not the same as Hermetic ones, even if the effects are identical, though for the purposes of adapting them they are considered similar to each other. Once they have begun holy magic, their lab totals must always be halved when learning magic from a Hermetic source, such as a book or Laboratory Text. Likewise, holy magi are treated as Incomprehensible when those who practice normal magic try to understand or duplicate their work. Because of all this, they are usually considered hedge wizards by the rest of the Order.

This paragraph treats the relation to and use of Hermetic magic by holy magi. So it quite clearly also halves Advancement Totals (see ArM5 p.163 plus errata) from the use of Hermetic sources, not just lab totals.
Note, that different totals in the early time of ArM5 were not always cleanly separated: e. g. some ArM5 Virtues before errata related to "study totals" which never had been defined.

Cheers

[Adauli]

@One Shot

Note, that different totals in the early time of ArM5 were not always cleanly separated: e. g. some ArM5 Virtues before errata related to "study totals" which never had been defined.
Cheers

If this is the case then Atlas games for sure need this passage in RoP:D fixed in a errata because someone who only have the PDF of ArM5, like me, never know about this circumstance of the 1st print and only assume that just the Lab texts are affected.
Anyway thanks, even if the part about the 15 penalty was never part of my question but instead my guess that this penalty is one of the reason that no one played a holy mage so far and that is the reason why there is no errata for the issue I put up with question 2 and 3.

So its only Arts and Lab text where the lab or advancement total are halved in both direction no matter the source? Or also some Arcane and Supernatural Ability? (Given that Parma Magica appares to be excluded I don't think any ability is affected)

[darkwing]

1. No they are not accelerated abilities. Just as with RoP:Infernal and RoP:Faerie, they are abilities. Under the designing a faerie wizard thread, people pointed out it's hard to get above level 20 effects without using Ceremony. Infernalists can use Ceremony as well as sacrifice for bonuses. For people using divine methods and powers, either you need a large group using Ceremony or you need to use every Faith point in a large relic to get the bigger numbers.

This does mean that if you can get a holy miracle worker with Com+Intervention+Purity of 15 and ceremony 6 to get a team of 6 people with Com+Purity of 10, you can make the level 75 needed to raise someone from the dead (70 base +1 magnitude for touch) with no vis needed, only a long-term fatigue or light wound from the people participating.

A holy mage can use the holy power guidelines guidelines, however if the effect breaks Hermetic Limits (like actually restoring the dead to life) it must be a ritual. The storyguide needs to assign an appropriate Techique and Form - as truly raising the dead is similar to the level 75 spell in the main book The shadow of life renewed, CrCo(Me) will work. A holy mage needs to be able to research a level 75 CrCo(Me) spell and then cast it, using 15 pawns of vis (but they can substitute long-term fatigue for this).
The very big guidelines are achievable, but only by large ceremonial groups, saints with high levels of Faith, people possessing the greatest relics in the world, or specialist Holy Magi.

2. & 3)The sentences about holy magi studying hermetic magi could be better phrased as "Holy magi treat normal Hermetic books, laboratory texts and teachers as having the Incomprehensible flaw, and likewise they are treated as Incomprehensible by normal Hermetic magi."

The example on page 46 isn't particularly realistic, it's just there to show the numbers. You might fall massively short if you try to perform a Holy effect in a pilgrimage shrine, fumble an awareness roll and don't realise that infernalists desecrated it the day before.

EDIT: To correct the name of The Shadow of Life Renewed

[Berengar]

@Adauli

So its only Arts and Lab text where the lab or advancement total are halved in both direction no matter the source? Or also some Arcane and Supernatural Ability? (Given that Parma Magica appares to be excluded I don't think any ability is affected)

The only mention of Parma in RoP:TD p.66ff Holy Magic is:

@RoP:TD p.67

They (scilicet: holy magi) retain their knowledge of the Parma Magica and their Hermetic Arts, but must adapt them to serve their new purpose, and this requires that they effectively re-learn how to use their Gift.

This can be read, that learning Parma Magica from Hermetic teachers or books is affected as much by RoP:TD p.67 "learning magic from a Hermetic source" as learning Hermetic Arts. But depending on the campaign there may be either very few or no books about the Parma anyway.

ArM5 p.91f Bjornaer Magic and Faerie Magic are unlikely to interest holy magi. But if some rare books or willing teachers on the subject are found, they should be quite repugnant and hence incomprehensible to the holy magi.

RoP:TD is mostly written 2005 and before. So Abilities relating mainly to Hermetic magic and introduced later could anyway not be considered in RoP:TD p.67's restriction on "learning magic from a Hermetic source" already. So determining whether e. g. HoH:S p.125f Mythic Herbalism or HoH:S p.128 Comprehend Magic are repugnant and incomprehensible to holy magi is a troop decision. Looking these Abilities up in detail, I feel, that the former is much more in line with a holy magus than the latter.

Cheers