Of course, if it was long ago incorporated into Hermetic magic you'd expect vanilla ReVi to exploit the knowledge as fully as possible already. It's not clear why you'd get further improvements as detailed in RoP:I.
Eh. It's just like the wards that were incorporated so well. Formulaic Hermetic magic can do better than Summoning, but Summoning is better when compared to spontaneous magic. You can simulate most of the effects of the other three with Hermetic magic, too.
Chris
I don't agree with that. (Spirit) Summoning is flat-out better. Summoning at arcane connection range requires a lvl 40 spell (as illustrated by Incantation of Summoning the Dead).
Hermetic: Re+Vi+(PenMulti) - 40 vs. might
(Spirit) Summoning: Re+Vi+(PenMulti) vs. might
As for Scouring, Hermetic magic just can't. Limit of Arcane Connection.
Even without arts substitution, it's still:
Hermetic: (accelerated) + (accelerated) + (PenMulti) - 40 vs. might
(Spirit) Summoning: (accelerated) + (ability) + (PenMulti) vs. might
And lets not forget that the example spell is a ritual, too. So there's 8 pawns of vis in there to sweeten the deal.
1 Like
I imagine it's because the magic realm can't do that on its own. You have to have the power to at least invoke the infernal realm to make those sorts of effects possible.
Going back over the spells, I see I missed the ritual nature of it. That does make Hermetic magic worse. But I don't agree with you on formulas:
You're mixing comparisons completely and you forgot several Abilities. Since most rituals are mastered, it would most likely look like this:
Hermetic: Re+Vi+ArLi+Phi+SpMa+Su+(PenMulti) - 40 vs. might
And don't forget that Hermetic magic would handle the circle fine. In order to accomplish this you want:
(Spirit) Summoning: Re+Vi+(PenMulti) vs. 2x might
So that's ArLi+Phi+SpMa+Su+might-40=0 for them to be equal.
You don't need an Arcane Connection if you have a sympathetic connection. And, presumably, if you can spot the thing you can pin it down without any connection at all.
This is a more fair comparison since the previous one only did substitution one way. But this is still missing several Abilities and the whole x2 thing that Hermetic magic can handle. As I'd forgotten the ritual aspect this left me without Spell Mastery at (accelerated)-40=(Ability)-Might as the break-even point. As I wasn't saying anyone could do it better (such as having 5's in the Arts), just that it certainly possible to get higher scores in Hermetic magic.
Yes. I agree with you on this point. I'd caught that just before reading your post. To me this is the biggie, and I'd forgotten it before.
Chris
No.
By the book, Summoning MAY be aligned with magic, but is tainted.
The other goetic powers, by the RAW, are always infernal.
I was probably unclear, but was refering to these when I said you gotta keep these infernal.
Really, making them non-infernal is only a pure source of endless munchkinism when coupled with hermetic arts, and loses any and all "temptation" interest.
I believe it was in Ancient Magic (but am probably wrong) that they discussed goetic summoning variants.
In short, Infernal is more powerful and heinous (which, IMO, is great), but you can have "lesser" variants purely aligned with another realm. Kinda like Elemental Summoning and Commanding, which are non-infernal, but less powerfull. Same with the Faerie Variant, or Hermetic Sihr (Don't have TC&TC)
So the general catch-all summoning is tainted and can affect all realms. Then there are smaller variants that are only capable of affecting a single realm, and those are not tainted necessarily 8well, I guess an infernal-specific one would be tainted regardless).
Could the other abilities (except ablating) be non-infernal as well?
Xavi
Without my books, the "Tainted" just means that Divine powers and Sense Holy/Unholy register it as Infernal but detection from other realms only reveals the true source of it, is that correct?
RoP:tI does mention that there may be (nothing definite) some non-Tainted versions of Summoning, leaving the doorway open for the later supplements and maintaining consistency.
Chris
And we've seen them part of them on RoP Faerie, HMr and on Sundered Eagle partially with the Call of Daimons.
The rest can be acorded with the Troupe and Storyteller, I am working on that too (too many work and too few hands)
- Seems about right, yes, with the caveat that summoning is not nescessarily tainted. It can be flat-out infernal
- Not by the books. Not in my book, too. Too broad and powerful, too tempting, too. Although lesser variants (à la Elemental Controlling) are possible.
As far as I remember, it works like this, yes.
But it could be the reverse, in fact: Such magical powers find their true roots in the infernal, and Divine Powers sense it, while magical ones are unable to.
Another thing to keep in mind is that a summoner is a Mythic Companion, and so under those rules can have up to 21 points of Virtues for the same 10 points of Flaws.
So Mr. Summoner could have all the Goetic Arts and still have 1 more point of Virtue than the Magus who took only Summoning. Also, Ablating and Commanding really do supercharge your seasonal experience gain, so having (Realm) Lore as one of the requisite abilities might not be as problematic as you think.