Rules That Should Be Core

If you are speaking of Dungeons and Dragons, the very first RPG ever, I would ask that you take a respectful and reverent tone. There are also ten different editions of that game (they do not all have numbers), and the combat mechanics of ArM5 are very reminiscent of the Advanced version of that game. The legend has it that Ars Magica was originally created as a set of HRs for AD&D. Of the two creators of Ars Magica, one of them went on to create the modern version of D&D and the other one has created a variant system based on the current edition of the classic game.
Euphemisms I appreciate include "Original Role Playing Game", "The Classic Fantasy Game", "The First game about Magic", "The Grandfather of all RPGs", and anything else respectful of the history of our hobby.

This is the wrong place for this debate. I just had to react emotionally and for that I apologize.

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Whether GURPs, Fortified Underground Defense Installatione and Gargantuan Exothermic Flying reptiles or any other system, there are always rules for movement, which fall into two categories- mathematical or narrative. AM seems to favor narrative movement rules which is discontinuous with how much of the rest of the system relies on math. That being said, movement in Medieval Europe over a large scale is highly variable and if you are not using a tactical map then descriptions of movement in combat are both largely unhelpful (unless you enjoy applying Pythagorean's theorum on the fly, since not every distance will be included in a description), and very contraversial (what determines how fast a person can in fact move- what stats seperate Winston Chruchill from Jessie Owens? Do we need to calculate height in order to establish stride, etc). As such I think maintaining a largely narrative structure is a good idea with some sort of guidelines involved so you know whether the magical or fey creature is generally faster than a horse, a human, etc. and maybe a method to resolve chasing someone. A supplement to define more precise movement and travel rules could be made for those who are interested.

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Fortified Underground Defense Installatione and Gargantuan Exothermic Flying reptiles

That sounds like a cool game. .... Oh, wait.....

Anyway - I rather like the 4e idea of having rough ranges such a "Close" or "Near" or so on. But generally speaking, I agree - keep the basic combat rules largely narrative, which for ArM5 means keeping precise movement rules to supplements. For future editions (?!), an even more narrativistic rules framework for combat (e.g. forgoing Initiative) might be in order, but that's not for this thread.

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Someone asked Jonathan Tweet about this at a convention, soon after D&D 3e came out, when we were doing a Q&A together.

He confirmed that this was not the case; ArM was partly inspired by the desire to be different from AD&D, but it wasn't house rules for it.

I followed up by asking him whether D&D 3e was, in fact, his house rules for Ars Magica.

He said yes.

(He may have been joking…)

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While I earlier put some disdain on equipment lists and used Pathfinder and D&D as examples, I'd like to say I have played both games recently and enjoyed them. :slight_smile: I could never imagine D&D or Pathfinder without equipment lists because so many people want them.

No rule set will please everyone. If asked what I do or don't want in a game, I'll use examples of parts of other games that I think AM don't need, and refer to some of the biggest games.

Every bit of bean counting gone away is a plus for me. I accept others love detailed equipment lists, and think it's essential we know what characters have. In something like Ars Majica, I have no problem with someone just doing a Felix the cat "I grab a rope from my pack, I grab a lantern from my pack, of course I have a mining hammer and piton" on the condition it makes sense for that character. Some people despise that and want "if it's not on your character sheet, you don't have it."

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With respect to using multiple spell mastery options during fast-casting:

I like this interpretation; it fixes a lot of issues with fast-casting. Perhaps this should be explicitly stated in the core rules, as it never occurred to our troupe (and I've seen a fair few mentions of fast-multi-casting from others on this board). We always felt the rules excerpt quoted above was simply justification for being unable to use non-standard voice and gestures.

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Yup. I draw the line with "options." Some Spell Mastery stuff just blanket-applies; they change things forever. Examples: Resistance and Rebuttal. But others give you options you can employ or not. Examples: Multiple Casting and Disguised Casting. When Fast Casting, you're not allowed to employ such options. So I've never had a problem with Multiple Casting and Fast Casting, as to me they don't seem possible to combine.

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So, would a fast-cast spell benefit from mastery for penetration in your interpretation, with the default being full penetration and the unusable option being 0 penetration?

Penetration doesn't give an option. It just resets your penetration.

I am totally going to steal this name for a retroclone. It is a project I have been tinkering with all year, and now I found a name!

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I've been holding onto that one for years, except its usually behemoth exothermic instead of gigantic...

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Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 4 has a personal economy system where you have a job or occupation or other income source, and you have a basic amount of pocket money per time period. You start the session with that money; all of your other money is spent on expenses. You can spend your pocket money on whatever you like, but it's usually not much. Catch: in the time between adventures, all your money is spent. You start the next adventure with your usual money.

You can spend 'found' treasure on durable goods, and you keep those, but the cash goes away.

Normal world add an investment option to that and it sounds very reasonable, it could even work for ars magica except that the investment aspect would be a bit different for a medieval period, and there should probably be a tie in to social consequences of "misspending" you money that can be recovered from. (you spent money on bribing a thief for information instead of paying your tithes? Scandalous!)

5 posts were split to a new topic: Cultural Norms and Ars Magica

Controversial suggestion: Include House Diedne as an option for player characters ie. make a sidebar saying something like: If you want to alter the Schism war so House Diedne survived, these are the options, virtues, number of magi, primus/prima etc for House Diedne in 1220.
Add a short blurb about how/why they weren't destroyed - more latinised, less pagan etc.

In other words - it doesn't have to be canon they survived (it probably never will), but some info and suggestions for how the hermetic landscape etc might look with them as a living house would be nice.

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I agree it should be an option, not that it should be core.

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Maybe in a future new modules, who knows...

I think that goes against the spirit of the 5th edition. The basic idea is that House Diedne is a myth and a recurring theme, and that you can use House Diedne however you like. If you define it in core, that freedom goes away.

I think it would need options and possibilities, either to be used or as suggestions and ideas of how to build your own House Diedne. But of course Sub Rosa #13: The Thirteenth House Unearthed! did exactly that. Honestly I think that's the better place to do it.

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I really do like Sub Rosa nr 13 :slightly_smiling_face:

My suggestion is not that every single thing should be set in stone - it'd just be nice if we got a frame work like: Prima/Primus, numbers in 1220, how did the Schism war conclude if they surive and are still a part of the order. Virtues and a few suggestions for culture and initiations. Nothing about ppl have to use it, or that you can't adjust.

We know they were good with spontaneous magic and probably some other "Druid" related virtues/mysteries - why not pop a few of those down in a, noted, "sidebar - optional rule". Some of us would like that "official" help :slight_smile: