For my part, I'd be happy with House Mercere being kind of like the Templars of the time - having access to a large amount of money that has perforce turned them into bankers (such as there were at the time). I tend to think that bigger issues make more interesting stories.
Taken from Zacharias' thread:
So Trogdor wants to have a story about his True Love. I wonder about protocol, and the social contract. Does Trogdor have any sort of veto over the way things are going or what a storyguide suggests? For example, Zacharias has Unaging and the Gentle Gift, so he looks quite young and is quite personable, despite being in his 70's. He may even have a wife and children already. (He's never done a Longevity Ritual) I had thought that he got married, has children, and now he meets his true love, and it's not his wife. So how will he handle this? It's a take on contemporary mid-life crisis, but we're in the 13th century, not 21st, and he's in a covenant with two members who are deeply devoted to God.
So my questions are: When does a storyguide pick up a story flaw and start running with it? What does a player have to say about a plot line, if anything?
I suspect one of the biggest things for them is the trade in vis. Buy it in tribunals where it is plentiful (like novgorod) and sell it in tribunals where it is rare (like Normandy), and start generating profit. Secondary is lending vis and fees for duties they perform, and so they would probably lend silver as well- though I doubt anyone outside the house really knows how much they have...
regarding plot points: my concept on the scabbard of wound delay was that a deal had been brokered to see this item to a Greek general whom Daedalus liked politically and was facing a battle with the Latins. the deal was that Daedalus (through his brother) would get paid from pillaged loot after the battle, but the battle did not go well and the scabbard was returned instead. This has probably led to charges being filed at the upcoming tribunal for interference with mundanes...
That is not the way I have ever seen things handled in any saga I've ever been in. Typically you get to choose who your True Love/True Friend is and story proceeds from there. I had expected that Zacharias would be married to his True Love at the start of the saga.
If people have such a broad interpretation of the flaw that a SG can impose a True Love upon me without my will, then it's not the flaw I thought it was and I'll pick another. I'd been waffling over this flaw anyway, and have been strongly considering whether I should instead take a minor Story Flaw and a Major Hermetic Flaw. I've considered that Difficult Longevity Ritual is something that would explain why Zacharias is focused on learning the Lesser Elixir and such, since under that alternative he'd need options to make up for his ultimate poor Longevity Ritual. I'd probably keep the wife and kids, just not make them a flaw. Or I could go with Dependent as a story flaw instead, to reflect the family he has and not just the wife. Then you can get into all sorts of stories as the kids and the wife get into trouble. I've been stewing over this for a while, but haven't wanted to stop my character design while I thought about it. Nevertheless, the answers to your questions are very relevant to my thought process.
Those are very broad questions. I guess my thought is that you can run with it in what way you think is appropriate so long as you don't totally mess with the premise that the player has come up with. Yes, you can have a True Love kidnapped, or threatened, or have them show needs that have to be catered to (maybe requiring precious lab seasons) , or have them get into trouble that needs to be dealt with, e.g., financial trouble or trouble with the neighbors. But I'd draw the line at something that turns the flaw upside down, e.g., simply killing a True Love with no real chance for rescue, or having them decide they don't love you anymore, or swapping your True Love for someone else. That messes with the foundation of the flaw and isn't fair to the player who thought they were getting one flaw and is actually getting another.
I know it seems like you keep on coming up with plots and the other players keep nixing them. But I think it's a case of trying to figure out the kinds of stories people are interested in.
It's perfectly fine. The bottom line is that we haven't met, we really don't know each other, and everyone comes to gaming with assumptions. It's also been quite a while since I ran a game, so I'm trying to work on plots. I'm also trying to find something where combat won't be a focus, since it would be quite some time to resolve the combat.
Thanks for being understanding.
I've been looking at social and political plots myself, trying to figure out something that will explore what it means for magi to become a larger part of the mundane world. But you're certainly right to look toward flaws and the like. That should be great fodder for stories.
I plan to do a story that start with a burning warehouse at the harbor that I could start any summer within the first 10 years or so. The initial act is mostly for companion and grog but as it is in the city magus can easy step in afterwards.
Collateral as a banking innovation comes from Knights Templar around the 1100s, which leads to France in the 1300s taking over the order.
It could very well be money lending tore apart the house.
Constantinople looting would not occur based on historical motivations if Magi existed and created money with a ritual. So there must either be some major supernatural reason it wasn't done or an edict. At least that has been my perspective.
Silk trade is huge at this time, it could well be something is instituted to protect the industry, not just Mercere, but they have interest(no pun intended) so they help with political clout to enforce something. I think it's interesting.
You realize about half that last post is unfounded assertations that make me wonder what you are talking about?
For example "Constantinople looting would not occur based on historical motivations if Magi existed and created money with a ritual" has no basis in fact or theory as I understand it, since 1)Magi would create money for their own use, not for someone else's benefit, and 2) the motivations of the Venetians had more to do with territorial rights of trade than with simple currency.
The knights templar are completely irrelevant to the discussion as well... and I am completely confused why you are referencing the Mercere house being torn apart or how you think that would happen...
On topic of virtues and flaws and stories. I've had a wide range of experiences. Since we don't know each other in person it's hard to gauge what people's reactions to things are.
I'm ok with any virtue being killed off, kidnaped, stolen, etc. as long as there is a way to rescue, resurrect, remake etc. Sometimes a heads up is good, like "how would you like to die?" so I can ask if you mean like "Spock/Buffy" dead or "the crow/spawn" dead or "new character" dead.
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Generally, I don't think Virtues should be permanently taken away. These are the things that define us and without them we're dull. But using them to facilitate stories isn't a terrible thing. For example, if my character had the Gentle Gift, you shouldn't be able to just take that away from me. That's a core concept from my character and something I spent 3 Virtue points on. But if you want to have some odd magic happen that messes with that virtue for a while, that's probably okay. It would be interesting to have the character experience life with a normal Gift for a while. But there should always be a way to get back to the status quo, or at least have an option to balance things out. Maybe I discover that it's a fluctuation in the local Aura that's altering my GIft. I might have the option to embrace the change and sacrifice my Gentle Gift for something in return (maybe a better understanding of magic that grants me the Virtue Flexible Formulaic Magic in its place). Where I'd draw the line is with forced transformations. We all spent a lot of time designing our characters and we want to explore stories playing those characters. It's not fair, in my mind, for a storyguide to force you to change your character just because they wanted to tell a story about that. In my example, I should always be given the option to return to the status quo and regain my Gentle Gift.
For example, you're playing a Merinita maga. It wouldn't be fair for me to have a story where you lose your tie to the Faerie world and lose the Virtue Faerie Magic. That's who you are. Losing it makes it a different character than you wanted to play. Now, if I wanted to have a story start with you finding out that your Faerie magic wasn't working right and you needed to figure out why and how to fix it, well, then that's a different matter. But the question arises as to how guaranteed is that recovery? I'd say pretty darn guaranteed. I wouldn't want there to be a situation where you as a player didn't cotton on to what I wanted you to do to recover your Faerie Magic and so lose it forever.
That having been said, messing with the very existence or usefulness of virtues should be the exception and not the rule. You can't go to that well too many times before it comes up dry.
Flaws are a bit different, in my mind. Stuff that happens in stories could alter those (especially Story Flaws). Say you had the Dependent Flaw (a son you were raising). You might have a story where your your son is given a very nice position withing House Mercere, taking him out of your control and setting him up for a good life. You might lose the Dependent Flaw and gain the Favors (House Mercere) Flaw instead. But again, a light hand should be used with that sort of thing, and options should be given to players. Drastic changes shouldn't happen without buy-in from the player either (i.e., no just killing off the Dependent). Again, it gets stickier when you take something away and the character has to retrieve it. What if you kidnap the Dependent? How hard should it be for the Dependent to be recovered safely? I'd say it ought to be fairly straightforward, though it might come at a reasonable cost. (I'm thinking "do this task for me" not "kill your familiar or I'll kill your son") It should be a story with a point, not just a way to punish someone for having a Flaw.
That's my opinion, in any case.
I agree. It just comes down to fun. I've had fun ideas that get vetoed by players, that after the fact realize I was attempting to alter something core. Now I straight up ask without giving away particulars, "how do you feel about losing your gentle gift for a story?" And have a case where even if the story goes off the rails, the loss was temporarily. Stuff for flavor, if you will.
Or they could lob fireballs without wondering why, except for the whole non-interference with mundanes thing, which was still an issue during the sack, since the game is about working on eliminating that restriction 16 years later. I think we can all agree that if magus freely interfered with historical events they could have turned out differently regardless of exactly how they interfered.
No, typically burning, looting, eyc. is the result of frustrated soldiers takin out their frustrations on the population and have little to do with things like inflation or political maneuvering. If it were just a question of availability of money Constantinople could have bought off the crusaders with their available cash.
There was no money. So taxes were raised. Population got pissed. Mercenaries not getting paid.
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http://catholicbridge.com/orthodox/crusade_sacking_constantinopole.php
If you read through the above you will find the motivations for the sack of Constantinople far more complex than simple money, and a strong suggestion that Alexius III did have enough money to handle the crusaders requirements.
I dropped it. One of the reasons new players don't like the game isn't the game, it's the pedantic amateur historians arguing. Both of us... I'm notoriously bad at times.
When you're running a story, it's your story, tell it however.
My intent was to contribute ideas, not argue.
Actual history doesn't matter here. The story you want to tell matters. If you want to go cannon Ars Mythic Europe, ok Sundered Eagle pg18. If you want to deviate, cool. We decide together if anachronisms are fun or not. I'm the new person, so I understand. You've already spent time invested on characters, background, and story. I want to play in YOUR game.
To put it differently, I'm a guest in your house. I'm fine with that.
I just realized that with our full replacement of the Thessaloniki covenant we removed the only 2 Seirenes mentioned in TSE. What make me wonder how the " Seirene usually spends time traveling with two other Seirenes" would work out if there only so few of them in their predominate Tribunal ^^.