Saga and Covenant Development discussion

I tend to agree with you. Though I'd probably go with a slightly larger solar that would be a combination bedroom/living room/office, modified at need, along with a small studio for consultations and a small room for any apprentice. The reason I said two levels on a tower per magus is that seemed a good dividing line. That way you could have an area easily marked off by a sanctum marker. 700ish square feet on one level is good enough for a +1 Size lab, which seems desirable to me. And another level can be easily marked off with a sanctum marker (leaving a room outside the marked sanctum for consultations).

My understanding is that the kitchens would be in the main house, along with the great hall, library, council chamber, and rooms suitable for guests. I'd also imagine that meals would likely be taken in the great hall (or delivered to the lab when a magus is working hard).

But I'm mindful that there are servants and storage and other "maintenance" rooms. Servants need places to live and work (though admittedly not much in medieval times). I'm also mindful that towers have thick walls and often very small rooms. A fully open tower level (like for a lab) would be relatively spacious. But as soon as you start subdividing it, you'll lose a lot to walls.

But you're probably right. We could fit three magi in a tower if they were willing to share. We could probably put two magi in a longhouse as well. A 20 ft by 100 ft longhouse would give 1000 square feet for each magus, which, as you say, is more than enough space. I can easily drop out a longhouse or two from the map at need.

Excellent point. I totally missed that. I'll make the palisade surround the compound.

One of the reasons I made the place so big is that we'll have upwards of a hundred people living in this complex, with all of the support needed for that many people. That's a small village. It made sense to me to put in a number of outbuildings such as the mill, the barns, the stable, etc. (We'll want the animals inside the palisade during the winter.) It could all be tightened up, for certain. But I also assumed that we'd have space to work with as we're in a fairly remote location.

As for an Aegis covering the compound, Aegis of the Hearth has a Target of "Boundary," which is defined as "everything within a well-defined natural or man-made boundary." Examples given are is the wall of a city or the edge of a village. It seems like the palisade walls should be a perfect boundary however much ground it covers. If a Boundary spell will cover a city, it should be able to cover a village-sized compound without much trouble.

It seems backward to me. Feels like we'd make sure that the initial compound fit inside a standard Aegis, then expand the compound when we can establish a larger Aegis, no? In any case, do we need that much space within the Aegis? The buildings are quite spread out, and with only a small tightening up we could fit everything inside of a standard Aegis.

A circle 100' paces in diameter is quite a decent area. Each tower is only 10 paces in diameter. That's only 1% of the area of a standard Boundary target. Most of the current space is just empty.

EDIT: Plus, the larger the area, the longer the palissade surrounding it. We don't have (and probably don't want to support) a force of grogs that could protect a very long palissade. Do we want to have to maintain an army?

I'm unaware of any limit on an Aegis aside from it being a "Boundary." Is there some artificial limit that makes it smaller than a normal Boundary? It seems to me like a palisade would be a perfect boundary, however long it was.

I can certainly tighten things up. Again, I figured that we had plenty of space to work with when I made up the map. No need to live cheek-by-jowl when you don't have to.

I didn't think the palisade was to defend ourselves militarily. I figured it was just to keep wild animals out of the covenant. But if we expect there to be military attacks on the covenant by hostile forces, then you're right, we should tighten things up. [strike]But then aren't we getting a whole lot closer to being a wooden castle than a manor house?[/strike]

EDITED: I just looked again at the description of a manor house in Covenants, and it says that "it is comprised of a large, stone building, often two stories tall, and minor outbuildings, which are wooden an indefensible. A manor house is surrounded by a secure space, called a bailey, defended by a shallow ditch and a thin stone wall about six feet high, without a walkway along its top. Some poorer nobles have wooden manor houses, or wooden bailey walls, but Hermetic magi rarely build in wood." It also notes that "a manor house defends its inhabitants from predators and brigands, but cannot hold against a group of professional soldiers or magical assault. It lacks the space to act as a defensible staging area for knights. Possession of a manor house does not alarm nearby nobility, and a manor house is not a castle."

Here's a more compact version of the proposed covenant.



KEY:

  1. Manor House
  2. Kitchen Garden
  3. Courtyard
  4. River Tower
  5. Lake Tower
  6. East Longhouse
  7. West Longhouse
  8. Cabins
  9. Cattle Barn
  10. Sheep Barn
  11. Smithy
  12. Stable
  13. Mill
  14. Granary
  15. Smoke House
  16. Well House
  17. Ice House
  18. Boat House and Dock

Or, with an even more compact design that puts the mill and the barns outside of the wall:

KEY:

  1. Manor House
  2. Kitchen Garden
  3. Bailey
  4. River Tower
  5. Lake Tower
  6. East Longhouse
  7. West Longhouse
  8. Servant's Cabins
  9. Smithy
  10. Stable
  11. Granary
  12. Well House
  13. Smoke House
  14. Ice House
  15. Cattle Barn
  16. Sheep Barn
  17. Mill
  18. Boat House and Dock

Also, I was looking on the BP sheet, and I decided to get a ballpark for the loyalty of our grogs.

We have 10 Gifted individuals (8 magi and 2 apprentices). 2 have the Gentle Gift; 7 have the Regular Gift; and 1 has the Blatant Gift (ouch). That gives us base Loyalty Points of -31.5. (Alas, even two Gentle Gifts don't completely counterbalance one Blatant Gift.)

What I know we have going for us is: a Healthy Feature, an Autocrat, and a Turb Captain. Assuming moderate stats for them, that should get us to about -1.5 final Loyalty Points. Close to zero, but still giving us a -1 Loyalty.

It should be relatively easy to get to zero, giving us a 0 Loyalty. (I assumed that our Autocrat had a +1 Pre; if it was +2, that would get us to +0.5 Loyalty Points and a 0 Loyalty rating.) Getting to 5 Loyalty Points (a +1 Loyalty) should be likewise straightforward. In fact, just paying the grogs half again wages will do that (+10 Loyalty Points). After that, it gets tricky. But at least we should be in the positives at the start. Not far in the positives, but there nonetheless.

Or do you not count apprentices in the mix? I wasn't sure if they get counted. They have the Gift, but they're not magi. Can someone clarify? Things get a little worse if we only count magi.

Not sure where the manor wall should go however I'd still like to see a marker for the aegis boundary and also where we see the village being contained. Maybe a wooden picket?
Would we also have fields outside the village too?
For labs and space I would like to get a larger lab. I plan on making it cold enough to be comfortable for my familiar so that will make a floor or two cold in a tower. Or Agnarr has a separate lab on the ground - that's fine too. Size 1 or 2 would be great.

Well, the palisade can serve as the marker for the Aegis boundary if we like. People seemed to be concerned about the Aegis being too large, so I dropped the size of the palisade. I suppose it's also possible to have another boundary instead. (The "edge of a village" is a proper boundary. Presumably the edge of a manor estate would also be a proper boundary.) What did you have in mind?

FWIW, I wasn't sure if we have a proper "village" anywhere near the covenant. We certainly have enough people living in and supporting the manor house to fill a small village (minimum 52, possible more). I had assumed that the manor house and its support structures would be the predominant buildings around, especially since we took the Secluded Boon. But then you may be considering the outbuildings as a village and the manor house as just being the house itself. I suppose that's more a question of how you want to categorize things. I was assuming that "the manor" included all the outbuildings.

I assume there will be fields outside of the covenant compound. I didn't show them on the map because it would have made the manor house and such too small to see properly. But I assume they're there, just off the map.

Is Jonathan allowing us to start with labs larger than size +0? That would probably effect whether people want to be in a tower (basically limited to +1 Size) or in a longhouse (not significantly limited in Size).

In the ArM source book on Targets and Size, base boundary has a size of 100 pace diameter. So roughly 100 yard circle. i think your first try at compression of the compound works.

Ah, there it is. My bad. Sorry for my lack of knowledge.

Indeed, it is compressed enough. :slight_smile:

If I use the towers as a scale, the palissade covers an area roughly 70-80 paces in diameter. So we can even extend it a little more. By comparison, the initial drawing with the palissade was roughly a square about 100 paces to the side, just a bit too large for a standard T:Boundary.

Upon further reflection, the towers are probably a bit bigger than they ought to be with respect to everything else, I should probably scale them back just a touch.

Wow, I never received any notifications for any of this most recent discussion.

One wrinkle. There would probably be a separate building for the kitchen, separate from the manor house. I mean, you have like 70 or more people to cook for. It would tend to be loud and it would also tend to be hot inside. I realize that magi can solve these issues, but it's still likely for the kitchen to be separate from the manor house, just for simplicity and not to tax the time of magi to solve problems related to heat, fire, and noise.

I can work in a kitchen. Let me fiddle with the map.

Okay, here's the map with a separate kitchen (right next to the kitchen garden), and slightly smaller towers.

KEY:

  1. Manor House
  2. Kitchen
  3. Kitchen Garden
  4. Bailey
  5. River Tower
  6. Lake Tower
  7. East Longhouse
  8. West Longhouse
  9. Cabins
  10. Cattle Barn
  11. Sheep Barn
  12. Smithy
  13. Stable
  14. Mill
  15. Granary
  16. Smoke House
  17. Well House
  18. Ice House
  19. Boat House and Dock

Also, I was looking over our proposed Boons/Hooks and see that we have the following:

Boons:
Aura x2 (minor boons)
Hunters (free)
Manor House (free)
Ungoverned (minor boon)
Healthy Feature (minor boon)
Seclusion(minor boon)
Secondary Income (minor boon)

Hooks:
Hedge tradition (major hook)
Magical Disaster (major hook)

I don't see Wooden as a Fortification Hook. Does that mean that our manor house and palisade are made of stone? I thought we intended them to be made of wood, given what things were like in that area of FInland in the early 13th century.

Wood vs stone won't make much difference, IMHO.

I think the "Wooden" hook is for a covenant made mostly of wood, thus flammable and less sturdy. In our case, we can probably have the manor house built with a first floor of stone and a top floor mostly wood. Since we have the conjured towers anyway, the most important parts of the covenant will be stone.

BTW, I will be offline starting tonight until next Monday, so don't expect any answers from me on the next couple of days. Cheers!

Thyra has a spell that makes walls. I have some Terram Vis to help do this.

It's now June, and with no comments in the last week, I guess we are done. Jonathan, is there anything else you need from us to go forward?

I'm spinning a couple of plates on poles. Should start bringing things together in about a week.