Saga design parameters and power level

I was hoping my avoiding the Summoner and the Sahir helped us avoid these issues. I would vote for weaker, but then there is also the whole decision process about which ones are weaker and which are stronger. Ugh.

The location is good for me.

If it's a problem, I can drop it. That's why I brought it up now, rather than to have it crop up mid-saga.

The one problem I could foresee is a balance and fairness thing. If you're building a companion off of 2 Virtues per Flaw, then you're already getting a reward to replace the Gift being Opened. If you then set yourself up to have it Opened right away, then you're bypassing the mechanic and should have just started in that tradition without much experience in your Arts. But if that's not the case (2 for 1), then the issue is nonexistent. Meanwhile, learning more Supernatural Abilities because you have the Gift and can find a Teacher would be reasonable.

I was never talking about 2 virtue points per flaw point. Just about getting opened to a tradition later.

I'm not saying you were. I'm explaining where I would set the cut-off for allowing a later Opening.

My apologies, I seem to have misread the minutae of that part.

Minor Supernatural Abilities are treated as if they had a minimum score of 2
Major Supernatural Abilities are treated as if they had a minimum score of 6

So that means Yannis Forest Lore increases the Ease Factor by 21.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. :blush:

Why would (2 x Flaw) Virtues be a fair cut-off point for when The Gift could be Opened to Arts? The Gift specifically allows a character to be Opened to Arts, be Initiated into Virtues, and learn Supernatural Abilities without Initiation. The Ease Factor increase due to Supernatural Abilities has always been the cut-off point,

An un-Gifted character cannot Initiate Virtues like what Xavi, OneShot and I discussed about the Awakening Virtue. An un-Gifted character can only Initiate Supernatural Abilities.

I think Mythic Companion and Gifted Companion are getting conflated again.

I think callen is proposing that if a character has (2 x Flaw) Virtues that the Gifted Companion should now be considered a Mythic Companion and is disqualified from Opening the Gift. There are some Initiation Scripts that have a mystagogue powerful enough to not inflict a Flaw for the Virtue.

At that point the Gift would be basically impossible to open anyway.

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I'm saying if a Gifted Companions built as Mythic Companions (maybe this isn't possible?) shouldn't be allowed to have the Gift Opened.

Mythic companions can't have the Gift

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That solves it. Then later Opening should be fine.

Problems with post from a cellphone and no access to the books. Sorry.

In R.A.W.

(Magus ≈ Mythic Companion) > Hedge Wizard > Gifted Companion ≥ Companion > Grog

I'm not so sure about that. HMRE explicitly says "unGifted hedge wizards are less powerful" than the Gifted companions mentioned above them. It also places some hedge wizards at grog level. Really, hedge wizard isn't a power level at all. As for RAW placement of Mythic Companion v. Gifted companion, HMRE says "your troupe may like to consider Gifted companions and Mythic Companion characters to be equivalent to magi" while saying they are a bit below Hermetic magi. TC&TC lists "Gifted Companion or Mythic Companion variants of Nightwalkers" as magus-level. So it really looks like RAW is saying

Hermetic magus ≥ Mythic Companion = Gifted Companion > Companion > Grog

Edit: I did find that HMRE explicitly says "Gifted companions are the most powerful" of the options, which include Mythic Companions. But I would still overall interpret RAW as putting them in nearly the same ballpark, even if RAW puts the Gifted companion very slightly above the Gifted Companion.

Interestingly, RAW seems to confound Mythic Companion and Gifted companion itself as I've found one statement that places Gifted companion within Mythic Companion. I think this is an oversight with a broad statement as opposed to something intentional.

Grogs cannot have The Gift, so Grog-level hedge practitioners are un-Gifted and equivalent in power to other Grogs considering all the Abilities they are required to take.

RAW specifically state that Mythic Companions takes the place of a Magus character slot in HoH:TL, HoH:S and in RoP:M, while Gifted Companions may occupy a Magus slot and are usually Companion characters as stated in HoH:S.

HoH:TL, p.104 (Mythic Companion insert)
HoH:S, p.106 (Mythic Companion insert), 107 (Gifted Companions), 109 (Scinnfolk)
RoP:M, p.88 (New Virtue: Spirit Votary)

I'm currently creating a Gifted Folk Witch. Looking at my options, I don't think there's much they can do to get money easily, so someone else will have to do the heavy lifting on covenant finances.

Now Folk Witches can initiate ungifted people, so I have the possibility to encourage grogs into low-level magic. Would a Gifted witch be allowed to experiment with initiation scripts like mystery cults can?

I have to look at how initiation scripts are created, since it seems initiations is something we are going to be doing in the saga. Right now I have no idea if a witch can initiate as default or she needs an initiation script (and how she can get one or create one of her own). It is in HMRE probably. Will have to check

Folk Witches have a default set of Initiation Scripts in TMRE, p.43-44. AFAIK, Gifted mystagogues can modify Initiation scripts, but in this case the mystagogue is culturally limited by the Folk Witch Coven and Sabbat rules.

...unless you're planning on starting up a new Folk Witch tradition in which case you have a freer hand, except for the Sabbat rules.

And welcome back @darkwing