Sahir: questions for solomonic magic


  1. I was carefully reading tC&tC when I noticed a bunch of spells to get an horoscope.
    But since an horoscope can give a sympathetic connection, and since penetration for sahir magic using solomonic arts is only based on the spirit enacting the spell , what is the point?

My first thought was: the spirit enacting the spell can use sympathetic connection, thus it's useful.

But i'm not sure for 2 reasons:

  1. page 36 says: "because the sahir is using spirit's power to penetrate, he cannot use arcane connections or sympathetic magic to boost the penetration total" ... that seems to be unclear as to know if my idea is ok or not, since in what i imagine, it's not the sahir who would be using the sympathetic magic, but the spirit.
  2. i'm not sure magical creatures can use sympathetic connections at all. That is a truly blocking thing for what I imagine, but i don't remember any other reference for that.
  1. I see some spells give a bonus to casting total for further spells. What is the point, unless the used channeling spirit (that is the one used to channel the spell) has higher might than casting total, and in the case of a lowered summoning strength?

  2. I think that after 3 readings I get it but just to be sure: sihr is not a "summoning" (goetic art) thing. You need to have done a summoning spell to use it?
    I get that from the npc example p34. He has an infernal spirit with a casting total and might level in his spell list.
    Before reading that, I thought that a sahir with sihr could just wander and bond many spirits (with the limit of leadership +1 as noted), but having read that, I understand that "getting a spirit" is a seasonal activity and thus you must take 1 season per bound spirit. If not: why would the spirit figure in the NPC spell list? It confuses me and I was hoping I could have my NPC in the story, try to get a more powerful spirit now that he is aware of the presence of PCs in the neighborood. If it is a seasonal activity, it will not work. If it is a "i can try on the spot", it can work since they are in a magical regio where there is possibility to have many spirits.

  3. for bindings. I don't get if the spell bound (by lesser or greater) is flexible or not : is it a constant effect? i think not. But can it be a trap-effect? (you try to use it, the effect activates on you!) must it be a voluntarily actived effect? (so no trap, only a beneficial effect for you?)

I think I understand the [at least, LESSER] binding is permanent and the effect is constant. is it right?

  1. Since sahir can "remove vis" from creature, i assume they can do that on living creature (if not, i don't see the point, they just have to get the vis from the dead body). Can they summon a spirit, and remove the vis? what advantage comapred to killing it with help of other spirits and just using its raw vis? for items i get it.

Without that, I can't see any option to see sahirs as dangers for hermetic magi.
Now I know that in the background it's clearly said that sahir are not combat oriented sorcerers. But due to the forementioned penetration issue , i cannot see how they are an issue for any magus. Spirits with great might, sufficient to penetrate normal parma magica are really hard to get because of the scouring/seeking limitations. So even if 100 sahirs work together, due to the fact that penetration is from the spirit and not the sahirs themselves, apart from acting on the mundanes/companions of magi/mundane rulers (and those of importance usually are protected by relics, divine auras etc.) I'm not seeing why at all we have stats if those are unless in a game.

So I hope I get something wrong and I can work my sahir right to provide a bit of a challenge.
Now my only thing is that the Travel art can be used, without need of penetration (which is good since it's their weak spot) to move between regio boundaries etc, which I intend to fully use to prevent magi to get what they want ever back.
But fleeing, if interesting for me, will be boring for the players which are already in a long quest for many things, and one fleeing would not be all. I would intend the sahir to repetedly flee until the moment they are in a place where other allies can take over the pursuing magi... So i'm stuck with "why couldn't those allies just be teleported as reinforcement in the first place" and the "finally, it's not the sahir, it's the powerful armies, other magical traditions or even powerful divine practitionners wihich will be a threat to the PC in the current situation".

Thanks for your information!


The Alchemic arts won't require penetration. They target the environment and the results are natural and last indefinitely.

Summon an infernal jinn or other demon. Send at Magi. Order the thing to never drop out of spirit form. Very few magi will be able to sense it to target the thing. They'll have no real way of identifying the demon, let alone getting the True Name for the arcane connection. Most demons will be able to possess covenfolk and use that to get through the Aegis. If the magus isn't ready a possessed combat grog alone with the magus has a good chance of winning a fight. Concentration rolls are nasty. If you send a demon that can wreck lab ware you'll lock down the ability to develop new spells. The real killers are the demons with the ability to open pits under a magus. Fall damage is nasty and if the magus doesn't have the right spells they won't be able to climb out quickly. A few falls will end a magus.

Remember kids if one side can't return fire its not a fight. Its target practice or a horror story depending on which side you're on.

  1. Getting a horoscope isn't just useful for sympathetic connections - it may also be useful for other magic, or for faking astrological spells.

  2. A bonus to casting total means you may be able to successfully cast spells that you couldn't otherwise.

  3. Um, no? Sihr is a summoning art. It's not Goetic, but you can use Sihr directly to summon jinn, and most sahirs do.

  4. Yes, you can make a "trap effect" if you want. If it's personal-range, that means it affects whoever uses the item. As for activating the effect, it's usually done by taking a specific action with the item, a la Hermetic enchantment.

Lesser bindings are permanent effects as long as the spirit maintains them, so their duration is unreliable and depends on the generosity of the spirit - if you want a long-term effect, greater bindings work better.

  1. Not all creatures can be killed for vis - but yes, usually killing them is the more efficient way of doing it.

  2. The reason sahirs are generally no match for magi in a straight-up fight is because their spells suck at Penetration (this is by design) and because they don't have the Parma. In general, they're more likely to fight against magi by summoning jinn (see Quite Possibly A Cat's suggestions), but there are other options. Perhaps some covenfolk can be enthralled while on a trip outside and will steal a token from the Aegis to give to a sahir who will promptly Solomonic Travel into the covenant in the dead of night and do the ninja death squad thing, or who will use Solomonic Storytelling to be completely unnoticed until the moment he attacks.

Now, if you want to have a sahir who might be able to do battle with a magus directly, have him have access to an Infernal binding that grants Magic Resistance, make him a Solomonic Alchemist and pile on the naturally powerful (thus not subject to MR) alchemic weapons. Have him make hash of the magus' shield-grog vanguard and move in to kill the magus with a sword.


There's an entire saga here!

From the perspective of the sahirs, magi are infidel invaders to be repelled and defeated.

From the perspective of the Order, at least once they understand sahirs and their doings, sahirs are collaborators with and dupes of the Infernal, trafficking with powers they either don't understand or understand all too well.

Given religious differences and a bad history, this collision is not likely to end in a celebration of multiculturalism.

Magi are powerful and flexible, but they are outnumbered 5:1 and the sahirs have advantages too, some discussed here.

The sahirs would do very well against magi with tricks like the above. But they don't control all the demons, one of whom will surely inform the Order (because it is the right thing to do) and then enjoy the Crusade that follows.

Or, the saga can be set late in the 11th Century, with a first crusade alliance of church and Order....