I doubt we would this spell fly IMS. My gut feeling is that species must be emitted by something, not "randomly generated". I am not sure that muto can change things to be "anything" (you cannot change a man to become "space", for example, and IMO thi s is quite similarto that. So I would say that you cannot turn something into species since nothing will be emitting them. Transforming stuff into species does not work for me. Pure gut feeling, ande against canon AFAIK, but I do not like it at all. YMMV et al.
Yes, because otherwise Muto becomes halfway to useless. Doing things like the above is exactly the kind of "inventiveness" that Muto is good for. As long as you watch out so you dont use too low guidelines as base or go to lenient on modifiers(ie complexity or size etc), its usually more fun than problems.
I cant recally ever seeing any such a thing either.
Roughly similar objections from me as well.
I also get the feeling it opens up for some rather nasty "speciesbased" spells overall and im not sure i want to see some of those.
Instant around the world travel by Mutoing to a "single" species... :mrgreen:
Thievery through scrying...
It doesn't make it useless, it does make it limited, weird, and hard to figure out. With the castle of smoke example, though, you can walk through the smoke, take the castle, and have it for yourself when the spell duration expires, rather than sitting on a pile of rubble.
If you let Muto substitute for Perdo by extrapolating from theoretical Aristotelean physics (which were meant to account for sensation), you've eliminated the need for Perdo at all. I just can't think of anything more fundamentally Perdo than disintegration.
I think hermetic magic is supposed to be flexible enough that you can accomplish similar effects with different techniques. For instance since rego can mimic anything that can be done with tools it is perfectly capable of reducing solids to dust. It’s disintegration but what could be more rego then that.
What if you used Muto to turn an object to liquid, in the middle of a rushing river?
What if you used Muto to turn an object to fog or smoke, in the middle of a hurricane?
What if you used Muto to turn an object into pebbles, in the middle of a landslide?
These are exact analogies. The word "dis-integration" (the aggressive opposite of the state of being "integrated") is a modern term, and the effect is parallel and the result similar, but it's but not perfectly accurate - you are not using Muto to "destroy" anything - you are changing it, and the natural environment is then acting upon it, scattering it beyond (any?) recovery.
(As always, if you accept the spell for your saga.)
It seems that in Hermetic magic there is always more than one way to skin a cat.
Those are all good examples. Muto is a hard one to get a grasp of. I don't think it has been very well mapped to the AM 5e physical/logical approach to Hermetic Magic, as opposed what I saw as a more storybook approach in older versions where spell levels were defined as much by perceived game effect as by a physical framework to the universe. Rego and Intellego map to the new framework very well once the species are added to the mix while Creo and Perdo are fundamentally fairly simple, leaving Muto as the odd man out.
For your three examples, how about if the transformed objects were blown away by the river, hurricane, or landslide but somehow retained their coherance at the end of the spell. The landslide would probably smash the target regardless. I don't actually like this answer very much but neither do I like using anything but Perdo for spells that cause instant death or total destruction. Why would Perdo be a distinct art if any destruction can be effected by a special case of Muto? BTW, the word disintegration in this case isn't mine but comes from the spell description.
"Dis-integration" (and I'm breaking it up so we can more easily think about what it means) is literally accurate, but not accurate in the vernacular usage. That is, a target is literally no longer integrated, and is broken up into its separate most elementary parts - but in modern usage "disintegrate" means "gone/erased/no longer existing/nothing left" - and that's not the case here.
The question of whether a smoke/liquid/pebbled "thing" still retains cohesiveness, still "sticks together as a unit" is up to the SG/Troupe. If a magic can turn something to smoke/fog and it does not get scattered by winds (& parallel w/ the other examples), that despite the change in substance the "thing" remains an individual, then it's certainly possible that when something is changed to species then light does not scatter it either.
This is one of those essential, important (but obscure and rarely questioned) decisions that is nice when "consistency" raises its ugly head - does a mage or vampire turning to fog get scattered by a high wind? Can a mage turning themselves to water dive into a river with confidence?
The answer is up to SG's and the Troupe, but regardless, most players would most likely want the answer to be either "yes" or "no" across the board, and not "when the SG feels like it" or "only when it's not targeting named NPC's".
Hmmm... That's not how I use it in modern language; the former is closer. Of course, I am in physics, where we do use the term reasonably frequently.
I think this is a very important point. I was thinking of the same type of Personal range Muto spells, where the caster's body remains cohesive even though made of material that wouldn't be. And I also have to agree with the earlier question about the point behind Perdo. I know I'm on the side against this spell.
This is a key question for Muto and you state it well. Perhaps a good answer is that because Muto is change, not destruction, a single coherent entity remains a single coherent entity after the spell takes effect. The entity is not magically preserved, but is still as hard to separate or destroy as before the magic.
So a mage transformed to smoke could be pulled apart by the same amount of force needed to dismember his human form. If you could somehow get a grip on the smoke of course.
A target turned into a tree could have limbs broken off, but it would seem unnaturally hard to snap little branches. When the spell ended the target might be missing a finger.
Well, according to A&A, a rock transformed into a tree by Muto magic remains a rock, but with the the qualities of a tree (Quality, not Substance is affected by Hermetic magic). Similarly, one of the core rules of Muto is that it cannot be used to inflict harm directly (which this spell does seem to skirt somewhat), but ultimately given the level of the spell and that scattering is one of the core qualities of species, I'd probably allow it...
So if a razorblade can be turned into species, can species also be turned into razorblades?
Is target individual appropriate in both cases?
Can this replace sensory magic (from HoH:bjornaer chapter?)
Think of that:
He raised his flag and forcelessly cast the spell that turned the flag's species into razorblades. The world around him, including the enemy's army looked as if it had been put in a mixer. Good to have a Parma, he thought.
This is a level 30 insta-kill spell that works better than PeCo, better than PeAn, better than Perdo period.
This is the kind of spell that has me thinking, "Maybe Ars Magica shouldn't have Hermetic Techniques," right along with using Muto instead of Creo. Why create something out of thin air when you can Muto a bit of air?
Leaving aside my concerns about stepping into Perdo territory, I have problems with turning entities into species.
I freely admit I have only a poor understanding of the system of "physics" in use here. However, I thought species existed as mental constructs, not physical ones. As bits of information, in a rough analogy. Mind vs. Body. This spell seems to treat them as physical entities, the medieval equivalent of a photon or the like.
What's the form of a species? IM? If so, how do I turn matter into image? If you Perdo an object's image it doesn't destroy the object, which implies that they are not interdependent. If an object is turned into an image via MU does that image than project an image of it's own?
I feel like there's too much extrapolation going on here.
Well, species must be material entities since they are sensed by material beings and not emitted by immateral beings, hence the invisibility of ghosts.
For my money, it's not Muto which is tricky, but Imagonem. In my sage, I rule that Im spells manipulate the property of an object which interacts with species and generates them, as well as species themselves. If this isn't the case then CrIm illusions are invisible to anyone with magic resistance, for instance.
For Muto itself, the important thing is that Muto changes things unnaturally (ie. in ways they cannot normally change) and that whilst it can also change things into unnatural things, that is harder than changing them into natural things. Thus, for instance, if you turn a man into smoke then he behaves like normal smoke and can be blown about. It would require a higher level guideline to turn him into self-cohesive smoke. When it comes to turning an Individual into an Individual (ie. a man to diamond), I'd allow either a man-shaped-and-sized statue made of diamond or single individual of diamond (ie. a small, uncut or cut, stone). Muto is temporary, after all, and Hermetic Magic is flexible - the guidelines are not exhaustive.
As people have said, Muto does allow you to destroy or kill things very easily, but it does so by manipulating a thing such that the environment acts against it. MuCo(An) turns a man to a fish, and he drowns on dry land. MuTe turns the ground beneath someone to mud, and then seals it up after them when the spell ends, entombing them forever. MuHe turns a man to a stick, after which he can be thrown onto a fire. As an aside, MuCo(Te) to turn someone's blood to mercury does not give them quicksilver poisoning because Muto does not damage things directly without a Perdo requisite - the spell merely produces a person whose blood is quicksilver and for whom quicksilver blood is, at that time, normal. Likewise, turning a man's skin to bark might or might not hinder his movement depending upon the magus' intent, but it won't result in his dying of bloodloss because bark doesn't stop blood very well - his nature is now that of a man with bark skin in good health, which isn't well matched by bleeding to death.
As for the mythical level 40 rule ... it is true that most spells capable of such a feat are quite high level, but not all. PeCo is, for instance, the worst way to directly kill someone, though the best way to cripple or wound them. PeIg is in fact one of the more powerful combat methods, but ReCo is pretty good too - it's trivial to control a person as a puppet or fly them off a cliff. You could also just ward the portals to a building against humans and then set it on fire. ReMe will put someone to sleep, at which point you can slit their throat. PeIm gives you an invisible, silenced grog who can rather trivially slip a knife into someone's back. Pretty much any Technique and Form can do it with a little ingenuity, and some with great ease. I do not see this as a flaw - Hermetic Magi are phenomenally powerful within their limits, and creative use of magic is part of what makes the game interesting. As a perfect example, wtiness Ranulf ex Flambeau in Magi of Hermes - he's incompetent with Intellego and so works out how to use fires to send messages rather than more normal techniques.
But you CAN Muto something to become insubstantial? Which then turns back into something substantial, which is the thing you say cant be done...
Cuch, the individual for Imaginem is "the equivalent of an adult human"... So, look at enough of anything visible to make that up and you have your individual worth of species.
Why? You dont need more than the species of a single base individual worth of Imaginem. It starts out as individual, not your fault it doesnt stay that way.
Otherwise you ALWAYS need to use Group target for any sort of illusion as well.
Requisite certainly. Complexity? Zero complexity, its just a laughably simple Muto spell.
RAW uses a bugout with "cant do this for unknown reason"(same page&book as spell), but if it can be done one way, the other will follow one way or another.
Anyway, hmm lets see now... Lets be really munchkin here as starters.
Base 2 for changing a species to "trigger" another sense(touch, through the delivery of sharp metal, hehe). Touch +1(touching whatever is used as the basis for the species) Conc +1 Terram Requisite +1...
I just made a KILL ALL IN SIGHT spell at level 5. :mrgreen:
Heck, lets make it Momentary instead and save up another level.
Bit more serious would be to use the same level as for doing the opposite, and Sight range, making it a level 30 spell instead.(edited for typo, 30 not 20)
I really must say i dont really remember the details well enough, but my feeling is certainly straining hard in the direction of "fishy"... I dont really care about that though, but this use of it sets some unhappy precedents.
Thanks for the information, Fhtagn. I have to disagree that it's just an IM problem though. There are potentially quite a few seemingly abusive Muto issues. Here's another one -- can I MuCo(Me) to turn my opponent into a fleeting thought? It doesn't sound too different from the MuTe(Im) we're discussing.
Since I wrote my last post I was able to read HoH:S again on the subject. I don't own the HoH books because I generally dislike splatbooks and I see much of my confusion regarding species came from lack of understanding what was printed there. If Atlas were to reprint the corebook with all of these core concepts included I'd definitely buy a copy.
Now, as to the spell we've been concentrating on, let me posit the following. HoH page 69 says that species "are also limitlessly available, because all objects emit a continuing spray of species". If this is so, than an object should logically contain a limitless amount of species. Muto should not be able to convert a limitless amount to a limited amount - that would be destruction, or Perdo. Therefore, Scattering Like Light might convert a target to species, but light is only going to blow away an infinitesimal amount of those species in the momentary duration, leaving the target to phase back to normality an instant later. Hence, no disintegration.
This species stuff is anachronistic anyway. Alhazen's classic Book of Optics is already two centuries old by AM time and (at least according to Wikipedia) was available in Latin by the beginning of the 13th century. Sure Aristotle wrote about species but back then they also thought Zeus was bigger and badder than Yahwah, which is something we enlightened 13th century philosophers rightly scoff at.
Probably, but its a level 35 base so its not quite as bad(level 30 to make someone insubstantial +5 forq req.).
Neat. And it seems at first glance at least, logical.
Oh and btw, about inability of turning species into metal shards, well you can turn a "mind or spirit" into something solid and i can see lots of ways to compare this to turning species into metal shards. Of course the "downside" is its base guideline is 25+req.. But its clearly another nail in the coffin of saying this "variation" cant be done.
Really dont like it.
My gut feeling is that species must be emitted by something, not "randomly generated". I am not sure that muto can change things to be "anything" (you cannot change a man to become "space", for example, and IMO thi s is quite similarto that. So I would say that you cannot turn something into species since nothing will be emitting them. Transforming stuff into species does not work for me. Pure gut feeling, ande against canon AFAIK, but I do not like it at all. YMMV et al.
