Nowhere does it state, or even suggest to me that there are beatings taking place in a Tytalus apprenticeship. I think this is a common misconception of Tytalus being jerks of the order, that they must beat their apprentices. But there are other, perhaps even more effective means of manipulating and controlling one's apprentice.
Okay, so what I was doing was taking a passage in the Sundered Eagle Tribunal about abuse and how they tried to restrict the use of the Tytalus Book of Instruction, an attempt that failed and making abuse equal beating. I know I read over the Houses of Hermes: Societates book but I probably just glanced through Tytalus for a fact that I wanted.
Anyway, yeah, while it is arbitrary and random the point of it makes sense. I still don't think the school would allow the blatent use of the Book of Instruction by its teachers, but its not as bad as I thought it was originally.
Actually, thinking about it, I could see some random penalties for rule breaking be certain parts from that book. Probably with the a House Tytalus magus being the one who administers the punishment. Nothing that is physically damaging, but mentally exhausting could be useful. In the end its all about strengthening the individual to be even more focused then before.
It is your game and you can play it how you see fit. i just see the craft being important for taking the Verditius apprentice. How would a Master of Woodworking be able to judge the crafting talent of a jeweler or a blacksmith? And yes, anyone can be asked to join the Tytali but it would be different than what their Founder lay down for the training of apprentices. Other than an occasional follower of Hippians, why would any Tytali take an unproven non-Tytalius trained magus into their House?
You can try to make the school all things for all people but what is the fun in that. Some Houses will benefit more than others by this school. Think of Mercere finding more and more descendants and increasing their numbers. I think all but Tytalis would gain some. Some more slowly than others.
Well, yeah, the school wouldn't really judge somebody on their Craft woodworking or jewelry, they would on their magic, or their ability to enchant magic items, or their general knoweldge. That said, if a House Verditius master was working as a professor in the school and had skill in woodworking then he could totally judge a student who wanted to master woodworking, who would probably end up as his apprentice. And if he knew of a fellow Verditius master who was great at say gemcarving, and a student wnated to become an expert at gemcarving, then maybe he could negotiate to have the master come to the school for a semester or something. While the master is present the school might get him to assist in some magical working or act of artifice or something.
Well, I was just reading over House Tyatlus from the Houses of Hermes and it seems like a very diverse House with little to no internal organization and many many ideas on how things work. I totally could see some Tytalus agreeing to assist, while others objecting. Heck, I could even see the school founders battling a House Tyatlus master and defeating him and being recognized by the House as a Tytalus, much to his non-enjoyment. Heck, the whole skill of debate that they have going looks like an awesome skill to bring to the school and something that would be awesome for widespread education.
Of course only those genetically related to other masters would be in House Mercere, but I totally could see a master letting their sons and daughters go to the school so that they could learn better magic and so the Mercere magus doesn't have to do it on their own. As for increasing that Houses numbers, the school will help train Redcaps, though they will only be in classes with those students that have the Gentle Gift. It will increase that House's numbers and importnace in the Order without actually granting them any more magi.
But yeah, I do figure some would benefit more than othrers, but I would rather not have any just dissapear. I would like it if I could find something usable in the setting lore for each House that would let me bring at least some of them to the school, granting recognition and providing assistance.
But yeah, for example, I cannot see any wya to truly let Criamonon benefit from the school due to the mystical and whatever nature of that house.
While I know that its my saga, and my setting variant, its not currently a game and more of a thought exercise, one that I want to hear differing opinions or nitpicky thoughts on. Heck, if you find yourself thinking of a story seed or an interesting adventure idea, please tell me, I totally could add it to the potential story elements written down for this idea.
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This is one of those ideas that have never really faded from my mind even if months or years go by since I last directly developed it. I remember a while ago coming on the forums and posting about this very topic, and I will probably do it again once my mind floats to something else. I would love to undertake turning this into an actual saga, though there are a lot of elements to it. 
Well, House Criamon is probably the easiest of the Mystery Cults to join, as one must simply be interested in questing. Riddles and mysteries to be solved. A Criamon master might pose a question that has no simple answer only to see who is willing to struggle with the attempt of answering it and those who give up easily. The Enigma requires those who will not give up easily. Bjornaer are probably the trickiest, if the schooling of an apprentice doesn't coincide with The Gathering of Twelve Years, then there will be many magi who are not initiated as Bjornaer. Further, the process isn't guaranteed and some apprentices might not survive the process, so the school could potentially lose apprentices. On the plus side, there's an entire House that treats the apprentice as if he were a full magus...
This is a really interesting bit of information and I really liked reading it. It gave me an idea for a weird professor who teaches both an esoteric subject and that of Philosphae from House Criamon. Amongst his various riddles and puzzles and mysteries is an attempt to try and see if any students are as interested in such things as he is. He gives class credit when students sincerely attempt to solve it, and even more credit if they solve it, or they give up while writing a huge paper on how they are unable to solve it (with failure actually leading to success).
Well, if its not time don't they just wait for a while. Which course could lead to twelve years of Bjornaer apprenticeship even though they are actually full magus. Yeah on the process not being guaranteed, though I always assumed that was more of an NPC issue than a pc one. The whole danger of death for the ritual is probably understood as part of the process - I know that the outsiders wouldn't know the details but I figure that they might say there is a chance of failure for those that attempt it. Even if this isn't stated to the students themselves, I doubt that one Bjornaer would keep it hidden to their allies and friends, even if they never share the deals. As long as it doesn't happen on school property I figure the school could say its just part and parcel of being a member of House Bjornaer, though sad its no different from the risks that any magus might make in performance of their duties and rituals.
I'm not implementing it or anything, but I think it would be cool if a lesser version of the Heartbeast power of Bjornaer was released, one that let a person release their inner shape but without some of the greater benefits of that House. I know I have stated this before but I totally consider the Hearbeast to be similar to such things like animagus from HP and it would be cool for others to discover it or for a variant of it to become a wider released phenomena. This said, that is for later on and is just a personal thought of mine, not something I would require for a Scholae Magicae saga.
Its cool coming up with interesting saga points for the Houses.
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Oh, and Jonathan, I was wondering what you thought about my variant rules for Hermetic Instruction?
I'm obviously interested in hearing what everyone else has to say about it, but I know you made changes to the rules so I figured you had a thought on the topic in particular.
Ho boy, much to read, much to say as well.
Since you plan to have the School (and your saga) starting in 1220, a lot of concerns raised won't appear immediately, so I will try to map out the evolution of the School.
Spring: The Founding (prior 1220):
I am taking the approach that most magi are rather conservative, very attached to their privileges and power/secrets of their House, hence my hypothesis (supported by several comments from other contributors) that initially, there will be a strong opposition to such Shcool.
The Founders of the School must be like-minded individuals to agree to pull they ressources together for supporting such an ambitious project. Amongst them must be the invetors of the various Breakthrough required for group teaching and Supernatural abilities teaching. At this stage, it is very likely that amongst the teacher, not all House will be present.
Because of all the potential issues (perceived threat of certain house practice, risk of toppling the political balance and such), the School will probably be quite secretive. With the idea that once it is up and running for several years, the benefits and success it brings will speak for itself (or that they will be enough mages graduating from it that they present a political force large enough to protect it from the worse threats).
My takes would be that only four or five house might be initially presented, probably those where lineage or specific training is not required. It would exclude:
- Bjornaer (because of the way a apprentice is trained)
- Tytalus (because of the Book of Instruction)
- Mercere: the lineage is a blood line, so there is not so much Mercere magus. On the other hand, if there was a sudden influx of gifted mercere children and not enough Mercere magi to train them, they would jump on the occasion to foster all this fresh blood and not "waste" any. They are only a dozen and I am sure the House would be more than happy to have 3-4 for more in one go.
- Verditius: they have a lot of secrets that they want to keep for themselves and their hubris is another strong reason not to support such project. On the other hand, they would have much to gain: what kind of artifact could produce a group of magi led by a master Verditius ? Yet, the only way to have Verditus magi to be part of the Founding would not be the School itself, but the location (if it was close to an interesting mystical site) or the possibility to integrate so new theory (Craft magi from the Rustician for example).
- Merinita: similar to the Bjornaer/Verditius, they have so many secrets that are specific to their magic, They might not be against the concept, but won't see the immediate benefits.
House who can present interesting cases:
- Quaesitoris: initially, because of their duty to report to Magvillus, a Quaesitoris cannot be part of the founding of the school if it needs to be kept secret. Any Quaesitoris worth his salt would immediately see the risk (before the opportunity) that such a School present. And to preserve the delicate balance of the Order would do anything to prevent its fruitition. Once it is up and rolling and they will have the weight the cost/impact of destroying the School, versus the opportunity. After all, having some many apprentices in one place, Quaesitoris can make sure that all have some form of education regarding the respect of the law and potential troublemakers can already be identified. Also if all students go through this kind of Schooling, infernal and other devious traditions would have a tougher time to get apprentice.
- Criamon are not against collaboration, in fact it is one of the few houses who has group of magi collaborating together (clutch), yet the pursuit of Enigma might not be suitable with the buzing life of a university campus. On the other hand, they might want to take the opportunity to disseminate (would they go as far as prozelitism ?) their philosophy amongst all those students.
- Flambeau: I don't find anything in their tradition supporting or preventing them to join such adventure. If a Flambeau is part of the founding members, it could be to provide some form of defense against the enemy. Or it could be an old magus, who has seen what violence brought to his life and after pondering realise that it might not be the best way to live and wants to share his life experience. It would be quite interesting to have the Chair of Philosophae held by a Flambeau.
House who would be good candidate:
- House Ex-Miscellane: on one hand their house (lack) of structure does not foster strong collaboration. But if the School is offering the ability for student to have Supernatural abilities preserved more easily, those traditions who might had to sacrifice some of their skills to be initiated in the Hermetic Arts who be thrilled to be able to foster a new generations of Hermetic magus with full-fledge hedge traditions abilities. A lineage of Folk witch with Hermetic Arts would be quite a sight to see. And Pralix lineage is part of this House, so strong incentive to integrate and preserve Hedge traditions. In the future, I am sure it will be source of much trouble and discussion about how truly Hermes magi are those witches with revel in their pagan tradition ?
- Tremere: the simple fact of having a strong structured education, making a stronger Order will suit them very well. It could be possible that a Vexillation could be supporting secretly the School. Maybe they see that as a testing ground to see if it works. Considering the (sore) history of the House, they don't want to expose themselves and take the initiative, but if somebody else is willing to test the water, they might "support the experiment" before implementing their own version. The fact that it is not in Transilvania, yet not so far makes it that more appealing.
- Bonisagus: tutelage under another mage is part of the tradition, so having the best specialist in a field teachs students should resonate strongly in Bonisagi. The fact that several Breakthroughs had top be achieved is another strong reason to be invested in such project. Finally, that would give the best opportunity to strengthen and close the various gap in Bonisagus' theory with all these Supernatural abilities being taught around.
- Jerbiton: they are the House with the most members part or supporting Academy and University so they are a natural fit as they can witness firsthand the benefits and impacts of having structured, mass education. They are also well versed in politics (both mundane and hermetic) so with House Tremere, they would be the first one to see the impact that such School can have on the Order.
Regarding the founding of the School, I see two options:
- the founding members announced that a their new Covenant would be in such and such place and are claiming a certain area for themselves. They set a "facade" covenant where they entertained their guest, receive Redcap and any delivery (and they will need a lot of supplies). But the School is built secretely in a more remote location, protect by powerful rituals or even in a regio so the School can remain a well kept secret until they are ready to officially disclose it. It requires more works for the magi as they have to maintain the charade, but it allows to keep all the benefits of a full fledge covenant.
- the founding members build the School without any annoucements. It is the best way to keep it secret, but it is hard to get supply, impossible to have a mailbox for Redcaps and so on.
As I said earlier, secrecy will be vital for a while unless the initiative is supported and founded by their Tribunal (with all the politics it implies and early opposition/sabotage).
Spring: The first generation (years 1 to 6 of the School):
No students has yet "graduate" from the School.
As the year passes, the number of teachers in function will gradually increases. At the minimum, you will need one active teacher per season per class-year. Possibly more if you consider that a class-year could be split in two groups (because of specialisations, topics of interest and what not). So at year 6, you need to have 6 teachers.
And unless you are to find magus to cover all the classes, it means mundane teachers for the non-hermetic classes.
I know that initially you were not really considering this option, but I don't think it is feasible otherwise. Also consider that if there is only 6 magis, they will only have one season a year for themself, and since it will be the "holidays months" as you proposed the schedule of the class, they won't be able to tackle any lab project. Not matter how altruistic are the founding mages, they will realise that it will cripple severly their development, leaving them weaker in case of Wizard's War or even simply political intrigue (they won't have much time left to travel, attend meetings and Tribunal). And if they have to keep a facade of normal running covenant, that would be a full time job.
Realistically, by the end of year 6 (AC: After School opening 
), they should be a minimum of 10-12 teachers, at least half of them mundane or hedge wizards (for the supernatural abilities) without hermetic skills. Also consider that for the Hermetic Arts, since it is only the basic that will be taught, any magus able to train an apprentice can cover the Arts class up to level 5.
By the way, the concept a month holiday between trimester is very modern, but crippling for magi as they waste a season a year. Considering that you can have up to week interruption in a season of work without encuring any penalty (maybe even longer, I don't have the rules with me), I believe having a unique week break between two trimesters is enough. The fourth season can be a full free time fo students and teachers (or for special projects/tuition).
Summer: The first graduation (year 7) - 1227
Anything between 10 to 20 new magis are graduating.
As soon as they become public, the cat will be out of the bag unless excellent cover story is prepared. Those new magis will have to disclose their parents, so unless they have one different each, it will become obvious that several magi were taking several apprentices at a time, and so far, in hermetic history, only Bonisagus manage repeatedly such feat (but other might have done it, without having it recorder, maybe because it is not a big deal after all). When it will become apparent that all those magi are coming from the same Tribunal, possibly the same covenant, it will start to make ripple.
It might not be instantaneous as news don't travel that fast. Especially if those magi decide to show themselve in different, distant Tribunals. But sooner or later, it will become obvious. Especially that at the point, every year, the same number of magi will be graduating.
It might be possible through clever strategy to delay the news for a few years, but when they will be 50-60 new magis within 4-5 years, it won't be possible to hide it. Unless they decide not to establish themselves in any covenants, or stay in the School for several years - but again, it is only a delaying tactis.
Also, most magi need a lab, so it is not realistic for magi not to settle in a covenant. Rhine covenant can accomodate guest as per tradition, but that's the exception, not the rule. Magi needs books, virtus... the more you keep in one place, the more you are putting strains on ressources.
To be recognised as full magi, a Quaesitoris need to be present. And there is no way he will ignore the fact that suddenly there are 15 new magi! Again spreading them amongst many tribunals will dilute the effect, but it means that the founders have friends in another Tribunal who won't mind presenting their "new pupil" - without any of their sodales being wise that they had an apprentice... it might fly once, but not twice.
And of course, there will be the matter of House membership.
- They can all be Orbis for a year and seek admission in House and if they have impressed some teachers, they might have recommandation from them, making the transition easy. At worst, they will end up in House Ex Miscellanea, which might see its ranks swelling to the point that they will have such a political weight that other House will (finally) pay attention to House ExMiscellanea politics. Especially if all the School students through friendships, loyalty or vow decide to vote in block.
- There is process (to be defined - i have some proposals for another post ) during the 7 years which determined which House they will go. Obviously, as long as the School is not officially recognised and every House aknowledge its existence, students will only be able to join a House present on site, where at least a member can vounch for them.
There is also the matter of the new magi age.
Training is done in 7 years, so technically, it is possible to have a 12 year-old kid, with 30% more seasons training under his belt than a 20 years old regular magi fresh out of gauntlet - and 20 years is the youngest by RAW a magus can be.
Even the most short-sighted master will realise that letting loose a teenager (with all his perfect judgement is capable of and long-life experience :mrgreen: ) with almost God-like powers might spell doom to the school in a very, very short time - they have lived with more interaction than the usual apprentice, but it was still in a very secluded and sheltered environnement, even more so as they were also isolated from the Order politics.
Realistically, their mandatory school program is over by the end of the 7 years, but they cannot be consider magi with the responsibility such a title carry (the idea to have a 12 year old voting at the tribunal will have the blood of many magi curled). There is probably a 5 years period where they will do their "companion tour", with the magus which will initiate them in the tradition of what will be their House.
It can very much be a the very traditional 5 years as lab assistant like any apprentice would do (which will give plenty of time for house initiation, Tytalus subtle torture and what not). Or it can be a real companion tour, where every year the companion spent time with a different magus (but likely of the same house), possibly in different tribunals, to really polish their experience.
Then when he will pass his official gauntlet, most magi should be impressed by his skills considering that in total he would have received 21 seasons of pure education and 5 years of exposure/training.
Note that if you decide to take such approach, it will contribute to delay the massive arrival of fresh magi by 5 years (giving more time for the School to prepare its "coming out", gather allies or prepare for Wizard's war). Yet, the school must be able to find all those magi who will foster these companions for 5 years. It should not be difficult to entice them: after all, which mage would reject to have a fully, well trained assistant for 5 years, possibly for free or for little compensation.
Finally 1227 is the year of the Tribunal preceding the Grand Tribunal.
Clever magi might start to pave the road by proposing some rulings regarding peripheral topics which could support the founding of such school (without mentionning it of course). Maybe clarification and disputatio on the obligation to have an apprentice, or what risk could be to have many gifted children without proper training.
Summer: The revelation year (years 8-11) 1228-1231
The Grand Tribunal is looming. Anything between 50 to 100 students have graduated from the School. Every year, rumors of a strong influx of new, young magi is getting stronger. The School needs to use these years to prove that: 1) it is not an threat to the Order, 2) it will not destroy the House structure, 3) it will not increase the risk of meddling with Mundane or the other Realm, 4) it brings benefits compare to the traditional way of training, 5) the Order as whole would benefit from it.
By that time, all senior magis involved in this project should have leverage all the political support they could - which means disclosing to many magi the existence of the School. Major Breakthroughs should be completed to be fully disclosed and present as proof of the benefit of such School.
Probably that those years would see numerous visits of external magi, wanted to see with their own eyes what is this school. Some magi might also be invited to be part of some major projects, or to benefit from the support of several students to help them complete their lifelong project (with huge labtot bonus). This is a political game to gain favor, support and dismiss fear.
Autumn: The Judgement - The Grand Tribunal (year 12) 1232
The existence of the School might be the single most important item of discussion of the Grand Tribunal. The importance for the Order are the same magnitude of the Sundering or the Schism War. And for once, it has the potential to be a revolution without bloodshed.
At this stage, any House who did not have representative not informed and invited to visit the School should feel deeply offended or insultated and strongly oppose the very existence of the School.
Opposing and supporting sides would present their arguments to decide if such School should remain in existence or be disbanded and any similar initiative should be forever forbidden.
Whatever the decision, discussion will not be over.
If the School existence is accepted, many points might be raised:
- Secrecy of traditions/mystery cults
- Gathering of gifted children (what about Boni-snatching either against the School or for the benefit of the School)
- Assignement to the House: some magi might consider that letting kids selected their House is not adequate considering their lack of experience and judgement. Then how to "allocate" them ? An auction ? A draft similar to what is done for NHL or other american sports league ? A competition ? Random (assume a Criamon will propose that to let "The Fate ladies speak").
- Sponsporing/support of the School
- Right to open other School (and sharing of the various breakthrough required to have such School run smoothly)
- Authority over the School (should it be considered a covenant, or considering its importance be under the guidance of the Praeco Tribunal, or even the Primus of House Bonisagus, should there be a board of directors ? should every House be present ?)
Winter: If the School existence is rejected:
- what happenend to the students, companions and such ?
- how is the Order going to manage an increase of gifted children (if it was the premise of the School creation) ?
- maybe every house want to have a School to maintain their mysteries ?
- what fines/penalty for the founders (if they are charged with endagering the Order, they could be Marched...)
Summer (again): Recognition (year 13+) 1233
Assuming that the School existence had not be forbidden by the Grand Tribunal, it has become public knowledge. Which means more friends and more enemies.
Magi may propose their service as teacher for several years (maybe for the right to pick up the student of their choice for the Companion tour, to be able to use 4-5 students for a lab project, to work on the integration of some supernatural abilities).
Every Houses want to have representative in the School, to be able to sway students towards their House, or to identifiy the best candidate, to network, to trade sponsor and funding in exchange of future favour.
Maybe the existence of the School is on probation, so due diligence have to take place to smooth out whatever points of contetion where raised. Saboteurs will try to make sure that for the next hearing the School will be definitely closed.
Each of this chapter of the School existence will present its own opportunity for stories, with a large range of character to play.
From students during early years, à la "Harry Potter", with rivalry and friendship. Maybe there is a reward for the best student of each year (virtus, tractatus, magical item, access to a lab, special tuition). Mundane teacher can make excellent companions. For the season break, what about an education trip to some mythic location with a professors, some grogs and some students ?
During the Summer period, professors need to organise themself in view of the Tribunal/Grand Tribunal: ambitious projects to manage, political intrigue, negotiation. It is an opportunity to play powerful mages and dwell into the deep politic of the Order.
Obviously, the Grand Tribunal should be the conclusion of the first Chapter of the Saga. I would not play the presentation of each arguments (as it can be boring and long monologue), but playing the negociation behind the scene to convince those without strong position to vote the PC's way (for favours or simply by presenting specific arguments resonating to their personal preference, or outright blackmail).
Another wall of text... I am trying to make it more readable, but tough with the limited formatting abilities.
Do you think a carpenter could judge if a student in an English class had the makings of a great auto mechanic? That is really what you would be saying. you might have a teacher of magic theory or of Forms. Unless there are "shop" classes to judge if any of the student's have an aptitude for a craft.
I just think the training of a craft fits well for the apprenticeship model. It does not mean that some students would not go toward the Verditius but I think it would be like the Tytali. And it does not mean those Houses are gone. It just means they can not take advantage of the influx of magi/votes.
Who is teaching would have a big effect. I'm sure the Tremere would offer to host and pay for the school if they could have a majority of the teachers. Influence those young minds
Ezechiel357
Oooh man, awesome. Really enjoyed reading this. I am not sure I can comment on everything, lol, though I totally wish to. Its a pretty interesting way of looking at things.
And I have to say while I personally disagree with some of what you say, I totally could see adopting a number of the ideas so as to enrich the story and make it more entertaining for more than just myself. Adding a little more danger and potential disaster to the events so as to make the eventual victory even more sweet.
The one main thing I will say is that I have implemented a rule in the Instruction Method that allows both students and teachers the ability to do lab work in the same season they are performing Instruction, though they take a -5 penalty to all Lab Totals. I am saying this up here because it effects the continued power progression of personal developments of teachers, they continue to grow and achieve personal development even while teaching. I am considering this to be using week nights, free class periods, or weekends to provide time for laboratory work.
Okay, now that is said, let me begin with commenting on your topics.
Oh, by the way, one last point - I like how you organized things by the nature of seasons, its a nifty look at things. Very nice organization.
Spring: The Founding (prior 1220):
I am not so sure I fully agree with the whole conservative nature of magi or how much they are focused on their houses over others, but let us go with it for the moment as it provides interesting story elements and potential plot seeds.
I consider the main founder to be of House Bonisagus, he was the one that established the unity of breakthroughs. But I also consider there to be a heavy Jerbiton presence, due to the nature of the Theban Tribunal as a bastion for them and their House. If a saga was to have players take up some of the roles of founders or major ally magi then I would be open to leaving open the options of where the founders come from, but yeah, I do agree that some are more likely than others.
Exclusion
-Bjornaer - Yeah, I do agree with this. Though I totally could see a magus of this House coming to the school to assist in the tending of its wilderness area and probably being hired as a part-time groundskeeper (with a grander title, lol). But I totally don't think a founder would be from this House.
-Tytalus - Members of this house are quite diverse and I could see the potential of one joining, but its totally not essential. An interesting point is that if one is present than some (though not by any means all or even most) of the teachings of the Book of Instruction could become part of certain school teachings. I wouldn't allow those elements that are thought of as abuse, but some of the others might work.
-Mercer: I want the school to have a good relation with the Redcaps, but I totally don't see one of the rare Mercer magi being a part of the schooling founding.
-Verditius - Relationships owuld probably develop upon the school needing advanced magic items and such, but I doubt it would be at first. It could be, but its not super necessary.
-Merinita - The area of the school is Magic aura dominated, not faerie dominated and so I doubt they would become a major presence or a founder. I could see some coming later on to maybe try and understand the more faerie elements of the surrounding area, but htat is not immediately.
Interesting Ones
-Quaestioris - Yeah, this is an interesting one. I don't want the school to lie or anything but it would be an interesting case on how to interact with those form this House. This said, remember in Thebes those of thois House aren't actually the ones who prosecuate and defend and investigate, it is the body of administrators elected in public ceremony that do it. Here such members might be more willing to act independent and such. The nature of the school existing in a huge ravine within a mountainous landscape could intrigue the terram specialists of the House.
-Criamon - This is one of those that I totlaly would see joining only if a player wnated to play a member of this House, rather than having a founder be naturally a part of it. I do think a teacher from this house could represent that crazy person who lives in a tower that comes down occasionally to teach and make criptic comments might be cool.
Flambeau - Its one of those Houses that are maybe or maybe not, depending on the situation. I actually have a member of this House being part of the covenant that the founders came from, and where he did his breakthroughs, so it might enable them to be included.
Yes
-Ex-Miscallane - Honestly, didn't even think of this, but yeah, it makes a lot of total sense. Heck, in the covenant that the founder(s) came from in Thessaly at least two members are from Ex-Miscallane. They could use their contacts, or just the general nature of there being a lot of Hedge Wizard traditions in the Theban Tribunal to get some of these magi to join. From a long term perspective having their secrets be taught could influence the Order and make it more open to others, which would be an interesting behind the scenes act of politking.
-Tremere - I totally don't mind them joining, though it might be hard for one to be a founder when the Theban Tribunal doesn't really trust the Tremere. I think it would be cool for them to be present, and it would do a lot to make sure that in the future the new magi of the Order don't exactly have as much problems with them as the older magi do.
Bonisagus - I consider the main magus founder and chief of the breakthroughs for the school to be a magus of this House, so they would be involved. I think his ability to snatch apprentices is an interesting ability, though he is required to share his breakthroughs with the Order at large, its part of his House mandate.
Jerbiton - The covenant where the main bonisagus magus came from had a lot of Jerbiton, so I figure that this House is a major presence in the schoo. For all the same reasons that you have stated.
Founding
-Well, you make a good point about a facade. In my notes I did have the covenant school establish a chapter house in Chandax, the capital of Crete, while the main site is in the Apollon Gorge. I could totally see them making it so that the city site is where the covenant 'truly' exists and so is the main point of first contact. To keep the actual school site hidden. I don't want the covenant's existence to be hidden, as that breaks the Periphery Code of the Tribunal, which states all covenants must be announced. Talos serves as the guardian for the covenant, so it makes sense for the school to be in city site - which in my estimation also has a magic aura in part due to the magical element of the island.
-Here is an idea, the covenant could be founded with the theme of "researching and developing a method for group Hermetic teaching, and then to establish a school once that is done" without really informing others that the breakthroughs were already made. This way the covenant founders could test the waters so to speak, to see what others might think about the concept. Some might want to assist, while others might just ignore it as a ridiculous claim that cannot be done.
The covenant school isn't so much in a regio, though it has some that aren't yet discovered, but its in the middle of a wilderness deep within the many mile long ravine in the deep of the island. So its not something that people could just walk to or take the nearest road to. Which is always of benefit.
Spring: The first generation (years 1 to 6 of the School):
Okay, so upon further thought on things I am not against the founders having mundane scholars and teachers assist them. I figure this is probably a stopgap measure till they are developed enough to keep it to Order-only, but for now yeah, mundanes can be brought into help teach. They will stay in the area of the school that is Aura 5, so as to not be effected by warping.
As a note, did you read over my description of class structure and organization. If so what do you think of it?
I do want to repeat that with a -5 penalty every teacher can still tackle lab projects.
I like using AC as a dating system for the saga. Not only is it nifty and cool, hehe, but it also allows us to play around with actual game dates, while figuring out when the best time would truly be.
The idea of having Hedge Wizard teachers is a nifty idea that I hadn't thought of, but is awesome and cool. And as this is Greece it shouldn't be that hard relatively to find such indivdiuals.
I was looking it up in the Arts and Academe book and they mention that most schooling is year round, so I kind of went with that. As a note. 
I am open to actually modifying the semester organization a bit, though I do want three semesters per year of schooling, none of this just one bs that the rules seem to declare as standard. And since lab work can still happen while being taught or teaching there isn't much reduction in growth and expertise.
Summer: The first graduation (year 7) - 1227
This would be a very interesting and epic time to play in me thinks. So much potential, so many stories, debates, discussions, events and stuff.
I will say that using the info from Hermes Portal zine issue one about the school, they don't seem to make any issues with multiple apprentices being declared for by the same master, as if the Order itself would just handwave that away as long as the student has gotten the normal training amount. That is different from what people in this thread seem to want, which is all out war. I'm kind of on the fence, I don't want any sort of full on wizarding war about this but I think some conflict and debate could be interesting.
I do figure that once they graduate, go through guantlet, become a magus, and are taught the Parma Magica they go off on their own without continued official school support. Which could mean going to random tribunals and starting up spontaneous covenants as they will.
But yeah, the fact that at the end of 7 years 20 graduate, then next year another 20, and so on and so on would make it quite noticeable that the Order is basically growing at an exponential rate.
You make interesting points, and I am totally not shutting them down, but how would you relate these ideas to the players and the characters they are playing. I think that is just as essential as to figuring out what goes on in the wider Order.
House Membership
This is a very hard decision to decide on, I keep moving back and forth between ideas on how membership is offered. The easiest option is that every student has an official mentor that serves as the defacto master for them over the course of schooling. Upon graduation time (or near to it) the mentor and student decide if that is really the house for them, and if its not a teacher from a different House steps in and basically adopts him as their apprentice, so that upon Gauntlet they are recognized as part of that House. This of course necessitates that all Houses have some staff in the school. So its a highly varied process that has a lot of pros and cons. I am very much interesting in hearing other opinions on this.
My goal is that all Houses are included in some way, that somehow all benefit from this and none are shut out of the process.
I am looking forward to hearing your process idea, I think something cool to make it mystical or magical or whatever would be interesting. But yeah, I am totally open and interested in hearing options for this.
Age
I figure the official age of schooling is like 10, 11, or 12 - I need to pick one and make it a standard. Heck, I could even go so late as 15, though I don't know if I want to. From whatever standard age one picks for schooling add 7 to it to indicate the age of graduation.
Any Gifted children that are found by the school before then may undertake non-magical learning in the basic youth academy while waiting for the official age. For those with parents or who already know who their master is, the master can educate them in non magical skills. The School only accepts students whose Gifts it has Opened using its own technique, so any student who might have their Arts Opened elsewhere cannot attend as full students.
I personally think if schooling starts at 13/14 then graduation is early 20s, which is fine. Most people in Mythic Europe are considered full adults by this time anyway.
I don't think I want to implement another 5 years of House training or anything like that. I think graduating from the school (age open to negotiaton) makes one a full magus with all the rights of that state, including knowing Parma Magica.
Maybe Houses could implement a 1 year membership training period in which they are seen as affiliated to the House but not full members, this would grant the house virtue and stuff. Still open to negotiation.
This said a Companion Tour or the Jerbiton concept of traveling Mythic Europe for a while is really interesting and I wouldn't mind seeing such a thing implemented and sponsored by the school.
Politking probably begins almost from the get go, I would figure. Some members of the school would teach, while others would go out and provide the benefits of the project.
Summer: The revelation year (years 8-11) 1228-1231
Yep. I agree. Not much more to add to this section, except yep I totally see these things happening. And that it would be fun to play out, at least those portions that revolve around magi coming to the school to look around or visit or take up a temporary teaching position. Maybe even negotiation with the Houses for certain benefits and boosts while assisting them.
Heck, this might be when the school announces that a lot of the vis that it gathers each year from the school's territory will be donated to the various Tribunals of the Order, and maybe allied magus as well.
Autumn: The Judgement - The Grand Tribunal (year 12) 1232
Look, I'm going to be honest and state that if I was to run this saga I would more than likely have the Grand Tribunal pass a ruling approving and supporting the school, not banning it. The later is not a story I would want or be interested in telling. It would also focus on an element of the setting that I don't agree with, the more infighting nature of magi and certain darker plotlines. This said, I wouldn't take away from player power or interest, and if players wanted to debate with the elder magi of the Order, I am all for it. There are differences between outright failure, basic success, and being so awesome that the player characters and the school get all the things or even more of the things than they thought they could get.
By this point if any House wasn't courted at least at basic level they just assume they are going to vote no, lol. But really, after 12 years of operation plus decades more of development why wouldn't they approach and speak to as many of the Houses as they possibility could.
These are all very interesting elements. And while I know that technically the Grand Tribunal can do basically what it wants, I don't think I want them to basically dictate authority over the operations of the school or how it is run. I'd rather the school be an independent or semi-independent branch of the Hermetic Order. But that is just me.
Still, these debates and discussions and such are pretty epic and could be fun.
Winter: If the School existence is rejected:
While I doubt I would actually let it go to this, I totally could see a side saga in which a faerie or some other such entity, heck, maybe even a Divine agent showcases to the player magi what would happen if they failed in their actions of getting support. This would then provide the players with the necessary information on how to 'manipulate' and politk to get those that weren't sure on the side of approving the school.
It also lets things happen related to characters much loved dying or wars breaking out and the Order collapsing in strife and anarchy, and stuff.
And then they find themselves back in their own bodies - probably already realizing sometime before that it wasn't their world - and knowing what needed to be done.
Summer (again): Recognition (year 13+) 1233
Yep, totally interesting potential story and plot hooks and seeds that would make this time of adventure quite fun, interesting, and game worthy. Totally like it, not much more to add as I don't plan on coming up with the exact plot points right now. hehe
Closing
Yep, so many story possibities in each of the early eras of the school.
I like the idea of students getting rewards for being the best in their year group. I think its a nifty point.
Agree with you on mundane teachers being companion characters. As would the agents and human servants of the school operating either in its environs or at the chapter house or even abroad.
Education trips to mythic locations would be awesome, and totally would be 'adventure experience' and would be really cool to design and play out.
Yep, so many plots and ideas and interesting elements to consider that could make things fun to play out.
Wall of texts are cool when the information is awesome, like this is.
If we were to say attempt to flesh this out in a more organized communal saga idea, I would always suggest a communal google document, though I figure for right now this is fine.
I look foward to hearing your responses on this and other topics and continuing this discussion further. And I very much enjoy and appreciate your comments. And the comments of anybody else reading this thread.
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jebrick
Honestly, while I totally see the school offering Shop Classes for the Crafts and the Profession skills, that is not the general purpose of this school. Its a school to provide all around great education, with a focus in the magical arts and the mythic world. Its not a school for learning how to become the best blacksmith in the world, which is of course an honorable profession but not the focus.
So yeah, I figure students would be magi first and foremost and then later on if they want to go about learning such skills as craft then a master-apprentiuce system in the old ways might be best for them. But it doesn't remove the benefit to attending this school.
This said, I would require magic item crafting to be a required class for all students, so by the time of graduation all have created a magic item, somewhat like what those of Veridius would do. Still, I am totally not against that House having a year or two membership training program before they recognize them as full members of the House.
And yeah, who the teachers are would have a lot of influence, which I think is cool. Even, for example, if no students could join House Mercere do to the genetic requirement, having a House Mercere teacher could totally benefit when it comes to skills of commerce, trade, and negotiation and treating Redcaps right. So so much benefit.
I don't think you should be so quick to dismiss the possibility of a winter outcome from the first Grand Tribunal.
If there is a credible and real threat to the future of the school, and that threat is not dealt with by the PCs, then you should let them fail. There's a story in the fallout from the school as well as in its future; and that fallout may well include back-room deals to restart the project under a different guise.
I honestly disagree with this. If I spent a long time in a campaign reaching for a goal that was in reach and we failed for some reason because of plot or higher power or whatever I would be extremely annoyed. I would feel let down abd betrayed as if the carpet was pulled right out from under me. Especially if we spent months planning, adventuring, and establishing ourselves. The success should be a footnote of many adventures.
If the campaign is about founding a school then the saga should not be about fixing the broken pieces after others (who are NPCs) tear it apart.
I'm sorry of this sounds argumentative, I just kind of really dislike the idea. And I'm pretty sure if I was a player I would feel betrayed.
This said, the story of the fallout of a school attempt or covenant creation could awesome stories, just not this one.
I do want players to feel in control of matters. Especially of what their characters do. So dangers abd disruptins should exist, just not all encompassing ones saga ending ones. In my opinion.
I fully agree with Ezechiel357. This changes the status quo of the Order way too fast and too hard to fly. The vision I had was something far less complex, a place where knowledge was pooled and passed along to the next generation without destroying the customs and traditions of the Order (and make no mistake, that's exactly what your doing). There is also another angle you have not considered: the Tribunal financial one. Since the apprentices you are seeking to recruit have no regular Hermetic master to support them, who is going to pay the tuition for this school? If its the Tribunal paying the bills, then the Tribunal is going to want a say how the money is spent, how this school is organized, who the faculty are, curriculum, and all the rest (he who pays the bills makes the rules). Look at the Department of Education in the United States. Any school that accepts it's money has to adhere to it's guidelines and regulations, and that's that. You may want to mandate that any student graduating has to pay back some of his tuition, like a student loan today. It also makes it impossible the school to remain hidden, as everyone in the Tribunal is going to know about it.
It would be better if the school were financially independent, so I suggest you think of a legendary source of vis nearby for the covenant to use, one that provides at least a rook of vis every year, as well as a legendary source of mundane wealth as well (200+students and masters is going to go through an awful of parchment real fast, not to mention food, clothing, ink, books, laboratory equipment and all the rest. This is going to get expensive real fast).
Talos
Look, I don't have a problem with agreeing that this would cause problems with the Order. My only concern is that all the issues that are being thought up to create problems might take away the power from the hands of the players, which I would say is a bad thing.
What I mean is if players came to the GM and said, "I am interested in playing a character that works to try and get the school supported by the rest of the Order" I could see throwing events at them that showcase this concept. But if players are all like "So I am interested in playing the students at the school and the teachers that work their and maybe the support staff that work to gather resources for the school, but I dislike the thought of outsider magi coming in and destroying the school, its not fun" then I would handwave away some of the problems.
Obviously this is just a thought excersize at this time but I don't want to get soo deep into all the political ramifications that it becomes less about the school and its existence and more about the crotchety old magus in the tower on the hill in the Alps Tribunal who hates the school and will destroy it.
Does this make sense? Does it explain where I am coming from?
I want to hear about all the issues or the problems that might crop up, but I also don't mind when some get explained away through a sentence or a pre-saga event or some other such story element.
Wealth
I consider any potential saga to be vis rich. I also consider that Crete would have at least one, if not two or more, Vis Sources from every Art. I also consider that all such Vis is directly under the control of the covenant, due to a pact given to them by the guardian protector of Crete, Talos. He defends the island and is able to traverse all of it in a couple of hours, so when he says its his and he will destroy any who take from it without his permission, he means it. I mean in the Theban book itself he fights against the Venucian fleets, and the only reason them and the Byzantines were able to invade was that he was imprisoned during their conquest time.
So the school is Vis rich, it can basically support itself magically as much as it needs to. I do plan on having the school provide Vis to at first the Theban tribunal but later on the rest of the Tribunal and the Order at large. The vis would probably be gathered by students following certain protocols and then shipped to where it needed to be. Though a lot of it is probably just left to remain in the world in natural formats, since harvesting too much ccan cause problems.
From a servant standpoint the magical race of the Folk provide the cheap and impressive basic support for the school. They don't need to be paid in the standards of money.
I also consider the covenant to have the Forest, Livestock, Manufacturing, and Mining sources of income. The Forest is the magically created forest that exists on the upper portion of the covenant's land, which when I looked up Crete on the internet is often rolling hills home to pastures and olive groves. I figure herbam magic will let the place be tree filled which the covenant will own and basically use to gather income. Some of the locals from the nearby community will, under guidance, gather the materials of the area. Which not only includes forest products but also animals that graze and live in the area. Mining from the natural mountains around the covenant, and manufacturing by turning said materials into finished good. Magic would make such a thing easier. In my thoughts the Forest and Mining are Typical Sources, while the other two are Lesser Sources. The main source is Wizardry, and is Greater at first before eventually becoming Legendary. This is based on the fact that the school gets recognition and resources from its status as a school of magic.
My thought is that those magi who have their apprentices attend the school give the school some sort of non-vis treasure, which maybe a magic item or a spellbook or something other than just vis (because the school is rich enough already). Such things would be highly unique at first before becoming a standard traditional offing as time went on.
I tried to make things make sense in the supporting area.
Oh, I should also note that the founders (before they technically founded the school) assisted the nobles of Crete in their attempt to gain independence from Venice. With their secret magical aid and the actions of Talos the Candian people actually manage to declare themselves independent from Venice and establish a true state. It is because of this support that the founders get the vis sources declared as theirs, and the property around the covenant site becomes something that they 'own'. It will also cause some story arcs about interference with mundanes (probably covered over in Jerbean dominated Thebean Tribunal) and more importantly the occasional requests by the new rulers of the island.
I do consider that rituals backed by vis are not exactly rare as they might be in some sagas, so a large portion of the buildings of the school were actually fashioned by Creo Teram rituals. Just as a note. (I LOVE the idea of using magic to create permanent structures, and so totally want that to be a thing that happens!!!!)
On the point of students giving back to the school, I totally want something like that but I don't want it to be something as basic as money or something as corruptible as an oath or their soul (the last is obviously not real). Maybe Service, though I do not know what that would be.
But yeah, I do agree that its better if the school remain financially independent, it will aid them in remaining politically independent, which I want.
If you have other ideas that might effect such things as above, please tell. As I have said I love the conversation and discussion and I think even when others don't agree with me what comes out of the communication is often better than what was originally thought.
I hope you all are having as much fun in this topic as I am, cause I tell you, I am having a seriously good time thinking about it, discussing it, reading answers, and coming up with followup statements and thoughts.
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EDIT: While I'm not saying I want to do this, as it would make the setting all but unrecognizable, it might be an interesting side thought piece to think of an Order that saw not just the actual founders establising the Order, their Houses, but also a communal center of education and learning. That the breakthroughs I discuss here were actually made by them as part of the Orders birth itself.
It would be very nifty, very different from what we know, but I think nifty.
Like I said, this isn't the direction the saga idea or this thread is going ok, I just wanted to share the thought.
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EDIT 2
So, random question but does anybody here know of any artists that might be interested in taking commissions. I would like to see about getting my scribbles and vision of the school and its environs drawn out to a greater extent than I am capable of. I would be interested in doing this even if nothing actually came of this idea in a public way. So thumbs up and thanks if you know of anybody, or are such a person.
While hoping for additional thoughts, , I have been thinking about this whole idea. I'm still interesting in knowing if anybody here does or knows somebody who is into scenery art and is open to commissions, I would totally be interested in speaking to them about getting the base expanded in art.
One of the major things I have to say is that the imagery of a group of magi coming to the future site of the school and enacting a huge magical ritual that basically forms out of magical energy an entire base is just so amazing to me. I think this sort of thing motivates me just as much, if not more, than the whole element of running and organizing and playing in a school. I'm not sure how one would actually roleplay that particular magical event, but I totally would love to do something like it. Actually, its while I really love the whole Creo spells, like Conjuring the Mystic Tower. The thought of going to an area and with nothing but one's skill, the power of the group, and some small bits of collected magical 'essence' (vis) and fashioning an entire building or complex of buildings to live in and inhabit is just brilliant.
To actually tie into the conversation I will post some of the smaller setting descriptions I have created:
Students, Mentors, Choosing
At arrival to the Scholae Magicae every student is assigned to a Hermetic professor who acts as their mentor and monitor during their seven years of schooling. It is the purpose of the mentor to keep their assigned students in line, to assist them in coursework, and to make sure they adopt to the rigors established by the school. Additionally, it is part of the duties of the mentor to serve as the defacto 'master' for the student as far as the Hermetic Order is concerned. This status remains on the official rolls even if said magus doesn't have the student in a class, though it may be changed if the student decides to join a different House. If a student comes to the school already having an official master than the mentor serves to foster the apprentice than then be his official master.
By the time of sixth year all students are pushed into deciding which House they might want to be. This choice may be different than that of the professor who has been mentoring them from the begining. When the choice is made a magus from that House steps forward to become the 'master' of the student, paving the way for his membership. Those Houses that require certain special skills or abilities from their members (such as the four Mystery Cult Houses) often push for the students to choose a little earlier than for the others. This is done simply for the fact that once the choice is made training can begin to unlock the mystery virtues of the House. During the ceremony of Gauntlet it is this master that represents the student and welcomes them into the House.
The Scholae Magicae has worked tirelessly from almost its very beginning to make sure that every Hermetic House is fully represented amongst the professors and recognized magi of the school. It is for this reason that magi in goodstanding within the Order of Hermes may petition for a short-term position at the school. While present during the term said magi provide additional options for students to choose from when it comes to the potential Houses they will join. Some of the Houses have made known the restrictions they place on their members, and the Scholae Magicae has decided to honor said requirements. The most visible of this is the declaration by House Mercere that only those connected to the House by ties of blood may join, so most students don't even get the option of becoming a part of that House. This said, the school has declared it will not accept any activity that puts their students at needless risk or damages them in an unacceptable way.
Upon graduating from the Scholae Magicae a student is considered a full on magus, with all normal rights and responsibilities granted to one. This said, most Houses only consider them to be an honorary member of the House, a status that lasts for about a year. During this year the magus undergoes one or two seasons of House-specific training, all in order to provide House virtues and mystery initiations. Upon completion of this training year full membership occurs and the binds and bounds of tutelage fades away.
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And a potential idea for how the Scholae Magicae might look itself:
The Scholae Magicae
The covenant of the Scholae Magicae exists within one portion of the many massive dozen mile long highly meandering Gorge of Apollon. The actual site of the covenant is on a natural crossroads area of the Gorge that sees the meeting of five ravines. In this majestic center span lies an outcropping of rock which rises from the ravine floor to two-thirds the height of the banks. Entrance to the covenant comes from the surface of the ravine where a gated archway leads to a meandering tunnel that exits out on the surface of the Petraploio (ofen translated as the Stoneship).
The structures of the covenant exist on both the central stone island-like mass and on the five sides around it. The central mass is called a ship of stone for it looks as if a mythological Greek sailing ship was carved directly from the natural rock of the outcropping. The buildings on the Petraploio are of a number of geometric shapes and seem to have been grown out of rock rather than built. Interspersed around the structures are numerous rock paths containing gazebos and garden plots. Five covered stone bridges have been conjured to connect the Petraploio to the wings. Each wing is accessed by an overhang ledge which opens into a massive tunnel that leads to numerous chambers. It is within these wings that the majority of the academic and residential activities of the covenant exist.
The aegis of the heart for the covenant covers a circular span marked out by a path of boulders at a short distance from the Gorge itself. This boulder line makes it quite easy to tell what is covenant land and what is not, the outside is the natural rugged terrain of the island while the inside is covered in magically planted terrain.
Everything within the perimeter marked by the circle of boulders has a Magic aura of 5. The Petraploio has a Magic Aura of 6 while certain portions of the wings have auras of six or even seven. While none have yet been found, mystically it is quite likely that one or more regios exist within the span of the covenant boundary.
The covenant contains a small number of large vis sources and a large number of small vis sources. Additionally, somewhere on the island of Candia exists a Vis source for every other category of Magic vis known to the Order. While one or two examples of every type of vis source has been declared for private use of the covenant, all others have been placed in communal trust for use by allied magi of the Order.
Due to the Magic aura that covers the whole of the covenant, the folk who work for the magi are not normal baseline humans. Due to the actions of the founders a magical race has been enticed to assist the covenant as a workforce.
Covenant Wings
When the covenant was first established all that existed was the constructions on Petraploio and the starting region of each of the five Wings. Within the Wings themselves the spaces carved out at first was the arrival courtyard, a chamber called the First Hall, and two hallways with two rooms in each. As additional space in a Wing was needed the hallways would be extended till they reached a point where they connected back to each other.
Along the hallway lies twenty-six rooms and the central space containing three up/down stairwells, a Great Hall, and an ornate chamber called the Temple. When this space proved to be not enough the covenant would then expand upward and downward into new floors. By a point many centuries later each Wing would have up to ten floors, with each floor having a height of 20 feet tall as an average. The floors were designed so as to not be directly ontop of each other, so another ten to thirty feet of solid stone lies in between.
Rituals
And here are examples of the two ritual spells that were created to make the school infrastructure go from theoretical to actual.
Creation of the Majestic Complex
CrTe 50
R: Touch, D: Momentary, T: Individual, Ritual
Req: Herbam
With this single spell a magus can create an entire complex worth of majestic structures, and the roads that move between them. At base the spell creates twelve gigantic edifices, each with a unique appearance that is about 100 feet high by sixty feet wide, with foundations that are set another 20 feet into the ground. Each structure is fitted with a conical stone roof two inches thick, twelve stone floors a foot thick, and numerous stone doors and shutters each an inch thick. The moving parts are on stone pivot points. Each edifice has stone plumbing for water and sewage. In addition, the spell creates a five pace-wide road between them, and the sewage and water pipes which are contained within the road. As an additional mystical quality all the stone fashioned by this spell has the Herbam-related ability to naturally heal itself of damage over time.
(Base 3, +1 Touch, +5 size, +3 Complexity, +1 special effects)
Bridge of Flowing Stone
CrTe 40
R: Touch; D: Momentary, T: Group, Ritual
Req: Herbam
This ritual spell creates five ornate and expertly carved covered bridges made from living stone. Imbedded in the underside of the bridges are stone pipes for sewage and water transference. Each bridge is 100 paces long by ten paces wide. The bridges are sturdy enough to support creatures of up to Size +7. As the Target is Group the bridges do not have to be connected with each other.
(Base 3, +1 Touch, +2 Group, +4 Size, +1 Complexity, +1 special effects)
I understand what you want to create, but I am not sure you realise how "legendary" the whole site is going to be. Even the old domus magnus like Durenmar and Verdi (the wealthiest House) is going to pale in comparison.
I do not think it should not be the case, but having it right off the beginning, breaks too much verisimilitude to me (I cannot really use "realism" or "balance"). It took century to Durenmar or Coeris to become what they are.
The School will have a extraordinary setting instantly, with grandiose buildings, unlimited vis source (or it looks like), faithfull servant who-dont-need-to-be-paid...
It is going to be perfect from the beginning, and Perfection is bad (from a story-telling point of view):
- If it is perfect, it cannot be improved (tha't the definition of perfection), so how are the PCs going to leave their mark. The story is about them, not the School. The School will only provide the background, the stage for their heroic deeds.
- If it is perfect, it cannot be threaten because it will have perfect defenses. No pain, no gain. No risk, not heroes. No needs, no (credible) threats, not adventures.
More important: Perfection is boring !
What you are describing could be what the School should be in 100 years, not from the beginning.
Give a chance to PCs to leave their mark in the school, so towers or halls can bear their name.
If safety, resources, aura are a given, why would a magus ever leave this place ? Why such a unique place, with abundance of virtus, aura, servants was not discovered before ? Why was it granted or left to a bunch of magus "who are going to work on such irrealistice project" (as you suggested in the premise of the School founding) ? It will be a waste of resource, let's allocate it to... .
Some players like to play SimCity with Ars Magica and prepare large spreadsheet simulating expenses and incomes. If they like that, don’t hand wave the opportunity to let them play with that by putting a magical garden, or large farmers community indentured to the School and providing for every needs, don’t have let large pile of virtus solve all the supply issues with spell to create parchments, building, labs and what not.
Also keep in mind that if your Saga means that School will survive, players should not know that, and should feel that they need to act to help the school survive.
Remove the magical servants. Let them be discovered through a adventure. For example, you can use Herisson's garden and the animated plants could become interesting servants once PCs managed to transfer it. Or use Broken covenant of Calebais' Hrools. In fact, this campaign would be a very good setting to establish the School: they discovered the Bell of Ibyn 8and manage to activate it) and brought back the Hrools proving the School with both servants and a very effective defensive mechanism.
“Do you know that there was fight between a Hrool sergeant (Calebais’s man-size ferrets) and one of the new guards ? It seems since we had to bring mercenaries to reinforce our protection, the two companies don’t go along very well.” “Well, Hrools are very territorial, they see the School ground as their land, and nobody else should be entrusted with its protection.”
“Why the assistant librarian has a donkey face ? He was caught fooling around with a the Hex master mistress…” “Of course ! What do you expect from a rusalka ?”
Remove instant mundane supply. To support all those mages and students, they will consume so much lab supplies: glassware, parchemin & vellums, spices, rare components. Even if the School has the wealth to purchase all that, it needs to be brought in.
What if the huge needs of the school lead to the invention of modern paper manufacturing ? Maybe some magus discovers some old papyrus. But instead of being interested by the content of the papyrus is interested as a mean to replace parchment ? It was found in tomb millennium old, so it means such writing support can stand the test of time. Can the magus rediscovered the secret of its making and possibly improve it to make paper out of wood pulp (instead of fabrics) ? Nothing magical behind it, but the magus will be remembered for centuries “he was only a passable mage, but boy was he good with Alchemy and tinkering”.
“Well, this season, students will have to scrape some of their old notes because we have a shortage of vellum; the boat bringing our yearly shipment was caught in a storm.” For students, they have to choose between either reducing the XP they are getting per season (because they are not scraping enough vellum) or taking a penalty to the final exam because they scrape some of their useful note.
“This year, we need to build an extension to the main body of the School, therefore all professors will have to perform virtus extraction as we need one rook.”
As it was pointed out, a dozen teachers,50 to 100 students will go through a tremendous amount of resources: lab equipment, paper, ink, quills, food, clothes. Everything can be solved by magic. How much virtus would it take ? Only a little bit for each items, but multiply by the number of requests and it will be significant.
Sure a simple Creo Terram 20 will provide enough iron for many weapons, armor and tools. How many different spells need to be invented ? Do you have a Craftmage with high Finesse available ? Willing to spend time on a regular basis catering for such mundane tasks ?
And the Vellum? Again Creo Animal will take care of that.
“Where is this lazy Craft mage when I need it ?!? By the way, since you are around, can you do a few batchs of inks ? I need some magenta, cyan, black and yellow. And maybe a bit of gold as well.”
“Dammit you clumsy magus !”
“You botched again and now you are playing hide-and-seek in Twilight ! Can you not organize you better and do your Twilight on your free time and not during School duty ? As soon as you are back, you are fired !”
“And you will have to reimburse the paws you just wasted!”
Err… sorry, I got carried away. Should I go on ?
Covenants gives a list of many useful minor items that can made covenfolk life easier. Yet, they need to be made. Maybe after 50 years existence, many things will be done my magical items, but it is not always reliable – often relying of Finesse (which can be taught to mundane, yet, it takes time). And for high quality items, craft magic is not reliable (Finesse roll above 15 frequently required).
If magic is used, assume that only average quality items are available. And it will not be enough for certain demanding magi and their expensive labs.
There is probably only Durenmar which is of a comparable size with the School. And even then, Durenmar relies on a whole population of skilled servants to fulfill all the needs. And if there was a covenant where magic and magical items are prevalent, it is Durenmar (and Verdi, dont' forget Verdi).
Remove "infinite wealth"
Yes, money can be created by spell however, a ruling of the Peripheral code limit the quantity of magical silver a covenant can use per year. So how all those covenfolks are getting paid ? How those goods are purchased ? How are compensated mundane (yet expert) teachers and highly skilled craftsmen ?
Reasonably, the School need a huge source of income, probably coming from trade, crafts and local crops. Which means business, ships, travels.
Don’t see that as flaw or weakness, but as opportunity for adventure and diversity.
The players are not so much into negotiation? No problem, go hunt some pirates – darn, they are by the island of Charybde and Scylla – they must have a pact with them! They want a taste of politics? What about some good merchant’s guild’s politick and blackmail – who happen to be a cover operation for a jealous nearby covenant.
Some investigation? Where is the crate of spice & herbs that was just unloaded yesterday ? Could it be true that some sophomore students built a secret distilling lab and are trading strong liquor for magic mushrooms in the Invisible Market…
"I heard this rumor about an Invisible Market set up by some magical or faerie creatures, but I thought it was just a wild goose chase for students."
Remove "infinite virtus" - same as Money, but more so for magi.
A dozen of professor and 50 to 100 students will need some serious vis. Even if most study is done with books and practice, they will use some virtus. Even if you consider only a pawn per student per year, that still anything between five to ten rook every year. Many covenants don’t have that in their storage (of course, this is one of the most hotly debated topics on this forum, so YMMV a lot).
On top of this if the School relies on magic to provide foods (craft magic or fertility ritual) , items, plus various protection rituals (Aegis, possibly very large), possibly some specific anti-Ignem for the library, maybe enemy detections in certain sections of the School. Even if rituals are replaced by magical items which will be more vis-effective over several years, still we are talking about huge quantity (consider Hermanus’laboratory as an example in Legend of Hermes).
Sure, a fast flying, invisible ship would be a wonderful item to support the School juicy trade across the whole mythic Europe. Just drop another half a dozen rook - assuming you don't need to build an Hermetic Shipyard (which could be a very good source of income and considering the location quite appropriate).
So at some stage, the School will have to charge for its classes. Whether it is paid up front, or when a student is adopted by a House is open to discussion. But having a source providing a 100n paws/year seems beyond mythical to me. Unless it comes with a price: the best student every seven years has to be given to some Supernatural entity. Officially, he was elected to have a unique training by a covenant who wished to remain anonymous, but in reality… What happen to these students? One day, one is seen around the School. He seems different…
Oh boy, I got carried away again...
A few words on the possible (and realistic) resistance the creation of such School would trigger.
Why would magi be defiant or adverse to the School (this is very generalist and of course, there are always exceptions)?
Not because all magi are backstabbing, power-hungry, selfish egomaniac (according to the latest survey, only 12.54% of the magi exhibits all these characteristics at once :mrgreen: ).
Magi are:
- Free men (the Code does not forbid many things), they don’t even need to work to support their basic needs.
- Live comfortable life (the poorest of them is probably still living more comfortably than an average lord)
- Live very, very long life
- Have god-like power at their fingertips (and will solve any problem with magic given enough preparation)
Simply put, they are at the top of the pyramid (but nobody sees it, so nobody challenges it): thus any change will be perceived first as a potential threat to this position.
With change, they have more to lose than anybody else, and are not sure what they will gain. Why would they take the risk to lose their comfortable life?
So by default, unless they see an immediate benefit and not threat to what they have, they will oppose just on principle.
Of course, they are also probably amongst the most educated men in Mythic Europe (or can have access to the broadest collection of knowledge) and are on average quite smart. So given time, presented with the right arguments, they can be swayed and can change their mind.
Yet, as long as the School does not have at least two Grand Tribunal history behind her, her existence could be challenged. The fact that you want to build a story around the School does not change that. At least maintain for the players the feeling that the School existence can be jeopardized and that they have a role to play to preserve it.
If you do not want the School to perish but PCs fails to take action and succeed, come with unpleasant consequences: a group of Hoplites and Quaesitoris are turning every stones of the School discovering many unpleasant personal secrets (but nothing challenging the School’s existence), or the School is shun from Redcaps and magi have to take charge of the mail distribution and books exchange, costing them precious time, etc…
By the way, I like your idea of founding a covenant pretending that “we are looking for mass education” and counting on magi skepticism to wave away the initial resistance. Once the first or second batch of students graduate and people are starting to ask questions, it will be easy to say “We never hid it from you. So you agreed. What is the problem now ?”. But such "stealthy" setting does not match the grandiose plan you have for the initial set up of the School.
Ezechiel357
I see your point. Its hard to accept it, but I see it. More seriously, I guess part of my 'problem' is that I see big, I see the big picture, the legendary epic picture rather than the play of the starting off.
The issue is that, as you say, I'm developing ideas for a school that probably has been around for a while and has already gone through its growing pains rather than the one that is just starting off.
At the begining phase there is a small number of teachers, probably the founders plust a tiny few, supported from mundane allies, and having to be supported either by magic or through mundane political dealings.
So yeah, I agree. The fact of things is that I enjoy making settings, and so I find myself looking at one element and then expanding it to what it would be at its height or its full on level. Not, as you say, what it would be like from the begining.
I think the way to solve this is two decide what story do you really want to play. Or I should say, what sort of story saga I would want to play.
Option 1 is the founders, the characters are recently guantled magi who have decided what they want to do. Its about the time before the founding when they are coming up with magic, going on epic adventures to gather resources, gain support, make allies. Such a campaign would probably either end or move onto its next phase with the actual founding. The first part of the saga could span twenty some odd years with the school actually being created as say a part of the Grand Tribunal. It would work but in such a case none of the stuff I have created or we have discussed would occur, beacuse players would make the stuff they want. Of course I could be a player, but even in such a case my thoughts would be one of many. (Which is obviously fine, if a bunch of people wanted to play such a saga this would be awesome).
Option 2 is students. The school is n years old, be it 10 or 50 or 100 or 1000 years old (depending on what sort of saga one would wnat to play). In this case the players make characters coming into the school and so it can be legendary, it can be amazing, it can have a past that is epic in its scope. Players could play students, professors, and maybe the supportive allies who help the school in various ways. In this case its about what one could do while learning, what name can you get for yourself in a world that has seem some pretty legendary stuff coming by.
The thing is that the nature of the options effect how much Ars Magica stuff could be used. Option 1 and early years Option 2 can use a lot of regular Ars Magica stuff. The farther you get in Option 2 the more you have to make stuff up about the world, the Order, and the supernatural. It could work, there is nothing wrong with it, but its a campaign saga idea that not all would be interested in.
Back to what you are saying.
I do agree that I would want players to make a mark on the world, they are the PCs, they are the special snowflakes, they are the ones who do stuff that get their names on buildings or make magical artifacts. So no argument with me on this.
Perfect Defenses aren't always boring, just look at Exalted. hehe
Well, on the reason why the site wasn't found before can be answered based on what site is chosen. I mean its on Crete, its a magical wilderness, its pretty far from standard civilization, its in the middle of a war torn area, and its protected by a supernatural being that doesn't like his place being threatened.
I don't so much mind the super magical nature of the place. I actually look at Mythic Europe and Ars Magica as a more fantastic place then I guess some people do. I think the supernatural is a little bit everywhere, and magical auras are actually pretty common occurances. So that element doesn't ruin anything for me.
I very much agree with you. I totally would love to play out a saga in which I am planning out and then building or magically conjuring my structures and designing my operations. I think it would be a nifty sort of game to do such things.
My only issue with the whole 'if the school is going to survive don't let players know' my entire premise for this was that 'playing in the school of magic'. Not that I disagree with your premise about players and having options, but if I joined a game with such a thing I would expect that people would realize that is the goal. If I was to join a game about 'exploring the powers of magic' and then out of nowhere with no notice or expectation an archangel comes out and wipes magic out I would be like what?'. I consider this to be a similar thing.
Its all I was saying when I mentioned about the school surviving.
Magical Servants
On them I did actually have an idea for an adventure on how the magical servants were found. I'm not so sure about using adventure of Calabais itself, but the idea behind it could totally be interesting. I even kind of mentioned it in this thread, the idea of rescuing some of the magical servants from infernal captivity. I was going to use the idea of Epris and their attempted conquest of Thessaly as a sort of spring board. Obviously these were just some ideas, and if players in a game existing before the school was founding didn't like it could be changed.
Those are interesting ideas though, potential adventure basis.
I really do like the whole political issue between the magical creature servants and the mundane mercenaries, I think the issue about them would be fun to play out. hehe
Mundane Supply
On this section your not really talking about mundane supplies, but random stories based on one or more supply issues. This could happen even with the set up I have discussed before.
I personally would never require players to choose between getting XP or not based on paper, but I could totally see having an adventure about having to figure out why something was low in quantity or quality and then solving it.
On resources, they get metal from mines deep within the mountain of the covenant. Its probably mined by the magical servants, though I could see some magi and students assisting in this if they wanted to.
They are really interesting stories to tell and could be told if players were interested in such a things.
This said, I don't consider Vis to be a scarce resource and I would never run a game with such magic being a rare and exotic thing that is only found in small varieties. Thus, I totally have no issue with vis being found in such quantities that Creo rituals being performed could be pretty common and 'easily' done.
Infite Wealth
I looked through Covenants and found the income sources of Forest, Livestock, Manufacturing, Mining, and Wizardry. With the last referring to its teaching and research operations in the Hermetic world. The other categories provide just enough normal wealth sources to basically not have to worry about it unless a particular player wants a particular story told about it.
My idea was mundane help comes from two sources. The first is that the local people living in communities not far from the covenant site work some of the resources and get paid for their assistance. They are not covenfolk but they help. The other is the people (mostly traders, merchants, and craftsmen) located in the chapter house existing within the Crete capital city.
On stuff like going after pirates, I figure some stories like that come into play when their allies from the mundane kingdom (who they helped to gain independence) and/or the protector Talos asked the magi for help. The school then set out some of its people to assist in the operations.
Infite Vis
Like I said above, I like and want Vis to be a pretty common occurance. I do not see it being fun if Vis is a rare commodity that is hard to get or impossible to use. I want magic to be done, I want highly powerful potent magical ritual to be somewhat easily accomplished. I wouldn't mind that certain rituals require certain vis types, which probably require story and adventure to get, but I don't wnat vis itself to be rare.
This is one of those things. I consider the area around the covenant site (no matter where I choose it to be) is vis rich in its magical supernatural source. I could totally see trips done by teachers with their classes to gather vis from sources.
Basically, a player who is a student gets to go on an adventure to get Creo vis. They do this once, which might take an adventure or two, and then afterward they are able to get the vis pretty easily.
Second Post
I don't understand why the facts you mention come to play in this story. The school and its teaching does not effect magi once they graduate, just apprentices as they are learning about magic. Once a person becomes a full magi - whether its my school variant or the official canon idea - they are as free as they are.
I mean, heck, I went to college and I graduated. The school holds no mor ereal power over me. They may ask but honestly I could ignore its demands. Its the same thing here.
I don't honestly understand while the story about the Order hating the school or its existence is necessary. I don't see while its automatic the story that seemingly everybody wants to tell. I really don't.
Maybe I'm just different, but I don't understand it. I'm interested in hearing why you seem to like it so much, cause I really don't see while that needs to be a major facet of the story.
I'd much rather tell the story of students going through schooling, understanding magic and going on adventurers while they have it. Maybe, if the players like the characters so much they could continue with them even once they graduate. And now thye are full mages in the Order with all that means - and all the freedom that that entails.
I totally have no issue with a random mage enemy or foe coming in and trying to be all dangerous, but the whole systematic destruction of the school by the order holds no appeal nor understanding on why it would happen.
Campaign
My initial campaign arc is that actually indeed they are simply working to build a school. That at the campaign start the future founders (or part of them) aren't actually ready yet to make a school. They don't have the necessary breakthroughst yet.
My origional story idea was multiphased. The people live in the Theban Tribunal in Thessaly, where the first saga is trying to figure out how to stop Epris from defeating Thessaly and destroying it. The push is that the covenant of the characters training was the one located in the capital city of the nation, and whose patron is also the Divine spirit of the city.
During this time they get a call or are found by a member of the Folk who escaped from corrupted captivity and who wanted to ask for help. In this the characters then could choose to help free the Folk, of which some (or many or almost all) choose to ally with the magi who helped then.
Then, through contacts and family connections, the natives of Candia call the characters for a wedding ceremony on Crete. This leads to noticing that the Crete individuals were plannoing on trying to achieve indpeendence, and that Talos the protector would was going to help them. At this time the magi then discover the magical richness of the land and a potential site while doing something for somebody. They learn that to get Talos to suppor them they need to help the mundanes in their independence fight against Venice.
Upon all this - and while trying to not be noticed in their attempt at effecting the mundane population - certain things happen that enable breakthroughs. Not all yet, but just some, which come in handy while working to establish the covenant itself. Eventually, enough research and breakthroughs are done and the school could open.
How long all this could take varies and depends on numerous factors. All this and maybe the allies that the characters could get might lead them to being noticed enough that by the time of Grand Tribunal they can get recognized. And maybe supported.
And then after all this is done the saga becomes about the school, and classes may start.
The point of the above is that the story is multifaceted and I think could be fun.
Other Story
I would really love the ability to play/run a saga in which its Ars Magica rules but set in say the modern day with characters being new students entering into the school. Obviously add some threats in the face of dark wizards or corrupt forces or what have you.
Well, not even set it in the modern day just set it a little while after the school's actual founding. They can be part of the first class of students, who are responsible for making a lot of the school's later traditions and cultures. And heck as the school gets older they could help in some of the casting of basic spells and rituals that aid the school.
Final Thing
I find my mind going very broad in detail, sometimes I think to my detriment in fact. This is my current one cause the location and the setting and the story elements are just completely brilliant.
Part of the reason I like this so much is that i have bascially created a CreoTerram character who can basically conjure buildings out of thin air.
As a note, because I have been immersed in the whole Ars Magica world, setting, books again over the last few weeks I cannot help but wish I could play in it or something. It has such a huge potential for amazing fun.
One of the things that has always attracted me to Ars Magica is the thematic application of seasons.
Seasons apply to the year, to the covenant, to the magi, to the saga, to each story. A cycle that only goes in one direction; never backwards. Spring does not become Autumn except via Summer. Autumn does not become Summer except via Winter and Spring.
If you peer closely, you'll notice this actually matches the structure of good stories. Good stories have adversity and challenge and most importantly failure. Without failure, the heroes are never exposed to the magnitude of what is at stake. Without failure, there is nothing to make better.
The failure does not have to be a failure made by the PCs; but it has to be a failure they experience. If they don't experience it for themselves, it means very little to them.
Take a look at the design of many successful computer games (Metroid is a prime example): the player starts out with a whole bunch of cool things and feeling pretty awesome. No need to develop more, things are already pretty good (Autumn). Then catastrophe! The villain comes and does some nasty stuff and the player gets beaten to nothing - usually in a cutscene (Winter). Stripped back to nothing, the player now goes on a long quest to recover what they lost (Spring) and ultimately face off against who wronged them (Summer) before the game ends and the main character slips back into the complacency of power (Autumn) all ready for the sequel that follows the exact same structure.
Anything constructed in Ars Magica ( a setting, for example ) serves one of two roles. It's either a fantasy creation within which to let your dreams simply wander around, or it's a vehicle for telling a story. The absolute best way to transition from the first to the second is to hit the first with a hammer that does enough damage that -you- feel it. You have to break your dreams in order to tell the best stories.
However, whether the story told results in the dream being rebuilt (possibly better than it was) or ultimately results in it never really recovering, the resulting saga will be far more memorable for it. We remember our lives in stories; it's why it is so easy to apply the seasonal pattern to so many things.
Without winter there can be no spring. Don't be afraid of winter; whatever form it happens to take.
Hey, I do not want to break your Saga
Precisely.
Let's look at Harry Potter, since the parallels are obvious:
-
Do you want to play Harry Potter ? With all the shenanigans of student life compounded by magic ? It probably would be a more light-hearted game, without world shattering event, yet it can be very fun to play, because it will determine the future of the students. Small spells (level 15 or lower) to play with, competitions between students for the end year price (a cool minor item). Meddling with some minor magical entities (faerie, magic or even infernal) the professors ignored because it does not present a threat, or they acknoledge their existence and consider them as a good and (mostly) harmless training for apprentice. Like I suggested, some students having a booze distilling operation which allow them to get some extra virtus trading in the Invisible market.
For this kind of game, the setting is established, the best the PCs can leave as a mark is cup in a showcase, yet they will make friends, enemies and even a small reputation. Having rules to student study and Xp gains makes sense. You don't really need to bother with details like Summae and Tractatus as at this level, all learnings is coming from the teachers. Just focus on what impact the PCs. -
Do you want to play Dumbledore ? A powerful magi, involved in the management and/or the politic of the School. Story can come in all forms and shapes: political game to take over the control of the School - not destroying it, but a drastic change in the School management, influencing many generation of young magi (think the Malefoy family) - powerful spells don't help, it is more about connection, negotiations, trading and courting favors. It can be a direct threat to the School or his allies (and opportunity to finally use those mastered, multicasted BoAF and IoL
). PCs can be remember as the professor who did X, Y or Z. Or if you go more towards Academic achievment, integrating some edge magic or closing some gaps in Bonisagus theory.
For this game, the setting is also established, yet thanks to the PCs position, they can influence the future of the School. There success or failure will determine where their portrait will be hanging: in the main hall or in the privy ? :mrgreen:
Here, you don't need XP student rules, but guidelines on how much seasons magi have, what kind of bonus from students for their labwork can they get, what is their allowance of virtus for their research (think University and departments competing for the budget so they can buy the latest HPLC-MS, except that the goal is virtus, seasons the best lab of the School, graduate student support for nice lab bonus and such). -
Do you want to play Griffindor ? The founding father. With all the challenges it presents. Obviously you can decide to focus on only a part of the founding. You are more interested in "SimArs", but not so much in politics ? let's build some structure, some cool items to insure water, heat and clean sheet in the whole School. You will need to go epic (consider one or two Archmagus amongst the PCs) , as those PCs will be the one striking the deal with Talos who so far did not wanted anybody to settle on his island. What was the bargain, the price to pay or the arguments used to convince him ?
This is probably the closest of the traditional Ars game you can get, with probably much more fantasy and powerful magi. It is really founding a covenant, which will become the School.
Yep. As you see, I never mentionned specifically the School. Simply stating that because magi have such a good life that anything which might have an impact on their lifestyle will be considered with suspicion (at best) or dowright hostile opposition (at worse). Therefore, it will take effort from the founding members to win enough support to solidify the School existence in the Tribunal and finally in the Order.
It is not rational (like all fears) - although concern about virtus and aura scarcity are valid concerns - it is more about initial reaction, perceived threat (of losing political power, losing secret initiation, losing prestige). In project management terms, it is called "Managing expectations" and "Risks and Reward analysis".
Example: Me, Primus of House Verditius, what do I have to loose from this School existence ? How can I preserve the secrets of my House which make me/us so wealthy and such an influational power in the Order ? If house Verditius does not partake in this School, we will keep our secrets and can keep asking premium price for our items, yet in a matter of a few decades, we will be a declining house in term of number as we will have ten times less new magus entering the House than the other. Will our know-how and secrets be enough to keep up powerful despite our small number ? What if this School, with all their resources and objectives of integrating edge magi discovered Heron magic or other mysteries ? If we are not members of the School, it will be too late and we will really become obsolete. I see only one option: the School will never be born and I will spare no effort and resources to kill this idea before it spreads and gain support.
Then comes a Founding member: "We have found some interesting artefacts from what looks like to be a place where Heron's teachings took place. Would you like to send an expert or two to investigate this items ? One Verditius mage of your choosing heading the Chair of Enchantments would have access to our archives and could have his research partially sponsored by the School... Of course, it means dedicating some of his time to teaching and publishing some of his works, but he will have to care only for the advanced classes and we have some quite brilliant students who would gladly volunteer to assist. Free of charge."
It is just in human nature to resist change. And the better is your position in life, the more likely you have to lose something in the process, thus you oppose the change.
You might not want to play this part as you don't see why it should even be a problem. And if the other players are new to Ars and have no prior understanding of the background, that's fine. But players with Ars experience might find odd that such innovation and change went smoothly. You can handwave it, and just put it in the background or a footnote in a Grand Tribunal summary "After lengthy debate, such and such magi decide to sort the issue. They fought in a Certamen over the School right of existence and X won, therefore claiming the right to establish such School for a period of X years, when it will be assessed and possibly challenged again."
Redhurst Book
So I just wanted to mention that my copy of this book, mentioned in a post earlier up in the thread, arrived. I am reading through it and I have to say its a pretty good source of inspiration. I totally could see borrowing some of the concepts to use in a Scholae Magicae campaign setting.
Its very cool with a lot of nifty information.
Kid Gloves
While your breakdown of campaigns into the elements of the seasons is an interesting one, I am not sure its always pertinent. Basically, not all campaigns need to cross seasons, not all campaigns need to have a downside. And not all campaigns need to have a 'winter is coming' in them.
I get what your saying, and honestly you might want to post it as a thread because it has some nifty general advice for Ars Magica campaigning, but I am not sure I would want to apply it here even if I could.
Ezechiel
Oh don't worry, your not breaking my saga. hehe You are providing some really interesting thoughts on the topic and basically 'forcing' me to look at it deeper.
You are very much right these three sorts of stories are quite different, even though they are related to each other.
And I guess in all honestly that while I am designing things in the time of Griffindor (as in the founders) I am really organizing play to be about Harry Potter (with him being students) or Dumbledore (with him standing in for teachers).
If this became a 'book' I could totally see your three breakdowns located in a sidebar or main page labeled something like "Saga Options" cause while all taking place in the school they are different from each other.
I will keep note of this comment as I think its very very important to keep in mind as I think about the saga and the campaign and the potnetials of what I am creating or designing.
Okay, on this I see what you mean. I totally can see how this would occur and happen. As you say, playing out this sort of destructive activity isn't to my liking or interest, but I can totlaly see how it would exist.
It really relates to the above section. In a Founders saga this sort of thing has to be taken into consideration cause its important to allow players to be the one to make or break the school. In a saga set later on this is the past, an event of political and historical significance that changed the fabric of Hermetic culture and society when it occured. It happned, but its not happening.
I guess, and thank you for pointing it out I actually am glad you did, that I was designing the setting with the later mindset despite the fact it was taking place in the early time.
Thinking really a lot about it I would say the whole School of Magic idea can only focus on the school of magic if the school has laready gone through its early growning pains. To actually play out said childhood would basically mean that players can do whatever they want (since I would never presume to take away the right of players to choose) and thus the end result would maybe be nothing like what one thought about.
The saga idea I outlined above probably serves best in the form of a story or a video game-like activity with a sort of straight path from start to finish. Such things wouldn't really work in a roleplaying game, nor am I suggesting such a thing.
I guess maybe what I really kind of want to do is pick a random start date for the founding of the school and then pick another date that is the present of the campaign. And then run stories set in that chosen time period. Player characters might be magi teachers and staff, mundane assistants and servants, hermetic students, and the various other bits and bobs that live in and around the school.
If I did this then i would need to answer three things:
1) what makes this crop of school kids special enought that stories want to be told about them.
2) How is the school organized and desgined to make adventurers by the above characters interesting.
3) With the existence of the School of Magic how has the rest of the world, both Hermetic and mundane, been changed due to it.
Aspect 3 is one of those questions that could, if left to go on its own, could so radically change the Ars Magica world that the setting is nearly gone and all we are using is the rules. Even if, by whatever choices made, the Houses still exist.
A really interesting option for such a game is setting the game in 1220 as normal and making it in a world in which maybe the Hermetic Founders or their core apprentices were actually the one to create the school. Thus the school has existed since the very begining of the Order, actually comes from say the First Grand Tribunal, and was fundamentally a part of it from the get go. An element of this is that the current Bonisagus ability to apprnetice grab might have actually been given to the school itself as a natural right rather than for everyone.
If this is true then one must decide how the school fits into the rest of the Order's operations, as well as how all of the Houses actually work with it (which they would if the School was founded close to the Order's birth).
An interesting dyanmic of this is that Diedne and her later followers were part of the school and so the whol war agains that House would have torn apart the unity of the school. If one wanted to they could make House Diedne the equivalent of the 'dark lord' of the setting, and maybe make the rise of certain factions part of the current plot.
The whole nature of Ars Magica often sets the tone that despite the presence of the supernatural history up into the start date of 1220 kind of went along what we expected. Having a school of magic wouldn't necessary change that fact in all honesty.
I will say this one last bit, I am not against us discussing this topic with the mindset of any of the optoons (or even other options) that you listed above. I think that this one might be an interesting one as it changes certain events while basically making the Order still look like what we expect it would be. This said, I figure up the order numbers by a number of magnitudes due to the common schooling.