Scrying Tools: Mirrors, Orbs, Fires

[The_Fixer]

First, thanks to everyone who's replied. I appreciate it, especially when you've taken the time to research.

@OneShot

But what about the not quite Hermetic ArM5 p.122 InAq(Im) 30 Enchantment of the Scrying Pool

As you say, non-hermetic, in no small part because it doesn't require an AC. You can just lock into any body of water you know. Definitely not hermetic.

@InfinityzeN

"Soothe the Mother's Anxiety" MoH, p. 24 is an invested device, using an InIm effect to detect noise which activates the CrIm effect to display everything in the room with the arcane connection on the mirror. It displays images and sound.

I was trying to avoid items .
Otherwise, sadly, this follows the course I've outlined for these: 2 effects, with a linked trigger

@InfinityzeN

"Eternal Repetition in a Bottomless pool" Cov, p. 101 is a spell, using CrIm that displays a book (usable for study/copying) on a mirror, using arcane connection.

This is more interesting, thanks.

As far as I can tell, this could be used to spy on someone, duplicating their image, what they say, but nothing else.
I'm not sure this is correct, but it doesn't strike me as wrong.

What I'm not sure about is how this interacts with other targets.
What if, for exemple, I want to display the inside of the room, using an AC to that room?
Since this is a simple Creo Imaginem spell, the Target is the thing created (the illusion), as is the target. So this should work without any additional magnitude or change.

@InfinityzeN

"Haunt of the Living Ghost" in AM5, p. 144 is another spell, using Cr(In)Am with also projects your image so that it is not considered scrying. The see and hear part of the spell would only be level 15 without the added modifiers for projecting the image. Those include +1 intricacy (projects your image to a mirror, with your senses from said mirror), +2 to animate your image, and +1 Intellego (the senses are beamed directly to you, rather than displayed through a medium).

I've considered this, as well as the "improved" version in... whatsthename... Hermetic Projects. "Convening the Council", p44.

This is different.
In short, you have 2 effects:

• Create an illusion of your face and voice in a mirror
• Move your sight and hearing at that mirror's location.

The targets are the same: the mirror. Same for the Range.
IMO, there's a problem with the Target, though.
Not so much with the CrIm part, but with the InIm one. While this may works with a mirror (you perceive what's reflected in the mirror, and let's forget about sound), it doesn't really with a fire.
With Individual Target, you should get the species of the mirror/fire, not the species that reach the it.
I have no problem per se with the second idea, but it kinda changes how the spells operates.

Hum... This is probably why there's the "intricacy" modifier, not unlike a custom target based on individual, but still, this sets a bad precedent.
Pre-4Ed, this is not a big bother for Haunt of the Living Ghost (lvl 35 seems fine for what it does), but, IMO, this makes current "pure" InIm spell rather ill-devised.
For example, Palm of Seeing would be much better served with T: Ind, becoming lvl 3 instead of 15. Same for Prying Eyes (Core p144) or "Finger for Eyes" (HP p84): Why bother with T: Room if T: Ind is enough?

@Argentius

But in regards to doing it with standard hermetic magic, I'm not sure I agree @The_Fixer that adding a Creo requisite is insufficient. It seems to me that a Cr(In)Im or In(Cr)Im spell should be able to do this, but with +1 magnitude as the requisite is adding an additional effect, and using the base level that would be needed to use CrIm to make such a complex image (which will be several magnitudes higher than a standard InIm spell using that many senses).

There are example Cr(In)Im spells that create illusions far away and let you use you see out of the illsuion, so it seems plausible to me that you can do the reverse and use In(Cr)Im to perceive something far away and create an illusion of what you are seeing at your own location.

IMO, this is very different.
As I've written above, those share the same Range, target and Target, whereas the only example to what I want (display the results of an InIm effect) is an item with a linked trigger

To be clear, there could be up to:

• 2 different targets: The mirror, and the either the thing sensed (an individual, a room) or the sense projected (Your hearing...)
• 2 different Ranges: You to the mirror, you to the thing scryed upon / point of view.
• 2 different Targets: Individual for the images/sounds created in the mirror, and either a Sense, or possibly a Room, Room+1, you name it.

I agree that it feels like 1-2 additional magnitudes if right for this kind of effect, and, in previous editions, this is how things would have worked.
But now, I'm just not sure it is possible through formulaics spells alone, and fear the only "raw" hermetic way might be a Greater Enchanted Item

All that being said, Hermetically speaking, do any of you see any other way?