Secondary insight and elemental magic

I was sort of sure I read a topic on the forum that discussed when the virtues secondary insight and elemental magic kick in in terms of getting xp in other arts.

I think it is basically a question of how powerfull a major virtue can be and how munchkin you want to play your game, but let me put up a few scenario's.

A) I spend the whole season learning Terram from a quality 11 book. I get 11 xp in Terram and 1 xp in Aquam, Auram and Ignem for my elemental magic. Sounds clear-cut to me => this works.

B) Adventuring deep in fairy lands I have to fend off some malign fairy archers with a ReHe spell to pop the arrows back into those fairies. I claim that all of my 5 xp goes to Herbam. My secondary insight allows me to put 1 xp in Creo and Perdo aswell. It's not really a study total, but still an advancement total and some xp went into a form. I would say this should work.

C) I divide scenario B's xp over all 5 techniques. My secondary insight kicks in 5 times (for I have 5 'advancement totals') giving me another 20 xp to put into forms (no more than 5 per form). This is really pushing it and I would not allow it, judging that there is only one advancement total in the season.

D) When writing a book on Aquam I claim 2 exposure xp for Aquam. Since I have elementary magic, I get 1 xp in Auram, Ignem and Terram aswell. To me this is a tricky one. Exposure xp might be an advancement total, but it is clearly not meant to yield much xp. Characters with secondary insight can get around 3 extra xp on almost all exposure this way. Since it is a major virtue I am inclined to grant it though. (since those minor +3 virtues kick in often enough also)

E) When recieving 1 bonus xp in Auram because I'm learning Terram, I have an advancement total in Auram and should therefore recieve a bonus xp in Terram again and so on. This is pure nonesense, but I put it here just to be complete. :bulb:

How would handle such problems and what is balanced in game terms? (I don't want to down-grade major virtues either)

Seems to me like they would ONLY apply to study in the lab.

A) Yeh, thats how i'd do it.

B) I wouldn't allow the extra xp from either of the virtues, since it's not from study.

C) Since i wouldn't allow B, C wouldn't occur :smiley:

D) I wouldn't allow gaining exposure xp about the books topic when writing it. Latin, Artes Liberales, Scribe (Magic Theory if i'm feeling generous) seem more appropriate.

E) If the 2 virtues both trigger from the same study, i'd have no problem with that. However, since the extra xp is a bonus, and not gained from study itself, i wouldn't allow it to then act as a trigger for either virtue.

feel free to ingore my opinions though :laughing:

Yo can not hve two major hermetic virtues, so you can't have elemental magic and secondary insight at once. One problem solved :slight_smile:

Secondary insight says when studying one of the magical techniques from a book, teacher or raw vis. so adventure and exposure experience don't count.

Elemental magic says when you succesfully STUDY one of these arts. Technically the only thing you study are books and vis but i would allow it to kick in when being tought to even it out with secondary insight. I'm suprised there isn't an errata on it.

Clearly these virtues aren't ment to kick in with exposure and adventure experience. Studying from books, vis or a teacher limits it to one bonus per season and only being able to take one means you can't double dip.

The problem you ar edescribing is quite theoretic in nature. They are both Major Hermetic Virtues, so you cannot take them both as the rules limit you to one. Thus this is only an issue if you allow someone them both by getting one of them through an initiation into a mystery, and thus only at the SG discretion.

Darn - you out-raced me :imp:

The only way by the RAW that this is possible , is by a Mystery Cult Initiation.
Theoretically , you can get every Virtue in the Book (and likely multiple copies of Major/Minor Flaws) by this method.
SG discretion is needed , but a player can (with lots of XP and Time) create their own Cult Lore
and become a self-initiating Mystagogue.

I wasn't actually interested in the idea of having both virtues. It is just that the two are quite similar and both face the same problems. What counts for elemental probably also counts for secondary.
I don't think SG's should allow this double virtue thing too much, but that's just personal preference.

The reason 'study' is not clear to me is that there is erata on the study total from affinity, which is changed to advancement total. With Corpus Affinity for instance, you do get the 50% bonus from exposure according to most people here on the forum. When you get 1 xp in corpus due to your secondary insight however, would you get 2? (1 times 1.5, rounded up as is RAW)

I think it would be wise to give the extra xp only to activities specifically meant to increase certain arts. (a broad definition of studying the art)
For me these are: books, Vis, teaching, training (except that you cannot do that with arts). So for that I tend to agree with Tarlynxeno.

Can you clarify? Are you referring to an errata, or do you think there should be an errata?



'Study total' in the Affinity (art) virtue was erata'ed to 'advancement total.' This was to indicate that you get the +50% xp from non-study activities also. (think of adventure)

That is why I was wondering about when the elemental magic and secondary insight virtues kick in. => Should they work for adventure and exposure seasons also? (the discussion so far has lead me to think they shouldn't)

On a different note: when you do get those extra 1 xp's from either virtue and you spend it on an art for which you have the affinity, you will get 2 xp for as far as I understand it.

Hope to have clarified my chaotic thoughts

It's my opinion that the wording of the virtues indicate that you would NOT recieve the bonus for adventure and exposure, otherwise they would have errated it.

I would totaly allow this, and have allowed it.

Is the rounding up realy in the rules? I had a disagreement with a player over this (I think it's two, he thinks it's 1.5) and i'm too lazy to look it up.

I understand the inclusion, but I don't see it in the errata anywhere. Affinity isn't errata'd in the fifth first printing or the second printing, at least not on the list of errata here on the Atlas site.



Insofar as I understand the RAW:

A) Works.

B) Secondary Insight is not triggered. No extra xp.

C) No Secondary Insight. No extra xp.

D) You do get the extra xp for being an elementalist. You get nothing for Secondary Insight, which only comes into play when studying from a book, teacher or vis.

E) No infinite loops. You are also not complete:

E') An elementalist who earns 2xp through exposure can apply one to Auram, gaining 1xp in the other three elements, and one to Ignem, gaining 1x in the other three elements, for a gain of 6xp from the virtue.

F) If a magus goes on an adventure and gains 5 xp, he can trigger elementalist up to four times, RAW.

Cases E' and especially F may seem awesome and way too good, yet I believe that Elementalist still sucks hard and Secondary Insight sucks even more. Case E' is reasonable (6xp from using a major virtue well, versus 3xp from the minor virtue Book Learner). The more extreme situation of F' only occurs through adventuring, whose risks most magi are best off avoiding. Real power comes from Affinities (one in a Form, the other in a Technique), Book Learner (because the +3 will add to most of your xps anyway, and not just when studying Arts but also skills like Magic Theory), Puissant Art (in any Art that already has an Affinity), and a Magical Focus. I think that two Affinities plus Book Learner are far better than either Elementalist or Secondary Insight, except in the stingiest sagas, where Cautious Magic or even Skilled Parens is likely to work out better.

But that's just me.



But that's not an errata on "Affinity (Art)."


5th edition has no total named Study Total, at least not explained (and those n the virtues seems like a mistake), which is why they have been changed in the errata - but somehow some of them slipped - I've included the remaining mentioning of Study Totals as a suggestion for the errata in the errata thread.

Extrapolation is obviously a form of ancient magic in certain extremely literal interpretations. :stuck_out_tongue:

Unless the Line Editor himself tells you to replace all instances of Study Total with Advancement Total ,
why should we bother to be of assistance.

Obviously , by this interpretation , only Apt Students may be taught by Good Teachers.
And Good Teachers may only teach Apt Students
As they are the only ones with Study Total errata'd to Advancement Total.

David Chart has suggested that it would be better to email him directly ,
rather than just post in the thread.

I know. Which is very fair, but since that suggestion was a direct answer to the suggestion mentioned I reckoned that he was aware of that specific one.

Not quite...the term "study" is used in reference to Books and Vis on page 165.

As long as we're extrapolating, one could imply that a 'Study Total' is a more precise form of Advancement Total, but only refers to the Source Quality from Books or Vis. Teaching doesn't discuss "study" and neither does practice.

The point I'm making is that either a blanket errata of "Study Total" == "Advancement Total" is needed, or it's a matter of StoryGuide adjudication. I don't think that's an outrageous qualification.


It isn't.

This storyguide*'s adjudication is that "Study Total" is an atavistic error hailing back to previous editions that used it instead of "Advancement Total". That's the reasonable decision IMO. And unless I'm very much mistaken, that's what Ravenscroft was trying to say.

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