I am still trying to break the code on how a wiki worksl, so hat is out for me. Emails, forum or similar can work no problem.
Anyone else? I think this would work better as a collective project. What qworks for me (and my troupe) does not necessarily fit other people's sagas. And I like diversity.
BASIC PREMISES I WOULD DISCUSS:
TRIBUNAL.
I would go for Rhine or Stonehenge. Rhine is the base official setting. Stonehenge is the last pre-5th edition tribunal to come out and is fairly standard (and has no stats, so is 100% edition-compatible). Both are available in electronic format, so hunting references down should not be difficult for a new troupe just coming into the game.
I would go for Stonehenge myself since th Rhine gorge already includes significant amounts of potential covenant descriptions.
CHANGE IT AS FITS YOUR SAGA
The covenant description and setting must include options to tailor. Boxed text that tells you what would happen if you decide to make the covenant highly defensible, for example, or on the contrary, highly vulnerable; what would happen if you embroil yourself in the local politics, suggested locations for a relocation to another of the published tribunals, etc etc.
SUGGESTED SAGA ARC
This is not necessarily very explicit. Nothing on the scale of the Rhine gorge or the great supernatural fight in the northern sea, buit some kind of saga arc could be cool to have.
DESIGN
I like Triamore's book design. A region and back-story are described there. The region is broad enough to be relevant (Mistridge was just a backwater corner) and interesting, and the detail is good enough to set stories aplenty. I like that.
From the top of my head, so other issues are bound to creep up
I would find a Stonehenge Covenant more useful than a Rhine one. If I wanted to do a Rhine saga, I have plenty of material. But Stonehenge needs some 5th edition love.
If you would like to cooperate on a wiki or something, I am game. This thread and the Tribunals thread have inspired two project ideas that I have been tinkering with for the past few days. First is a recreation of the Iberian Tribunal according to my vision; a more standard interpretation of Hermetic culture, faithful to the original (though turning the Infernal volume way down, leaving a little bit in), the original Flambeau story (or something inspired by it), etcetera.
The second idea is an update and write up of the Covenant of Barcelona. A whole book (or massive wiki) can be based just around that.
Wow, some pretty cool ideas are brewing in this thread. I'll try and free up some time if help is needed, I definitely think it would be great to have such a covenant developed. Looks like an awesome project!
Iberia would also be a terrific alternative to Stonehenge, by the way...
Problem with Iberia is that 1) it is out of the current canon by a large margin and 2) at some point I expect it to be rewritten. More sooner than later, really (I hope so at least!!). Rome, Iberia and Loch Leglean should be the next triad of tribunals on the line after Provence, after all. Stonehenge, OTOH should be the last of the non-5th edition tribunals. I prefer to play safe here
I would contribute to the Barcelona wiki, though. However, I do not think a wiki is the best layout for the final product: i prefer a more traditional "chapter 1, chapter 2..." approach. I never seem to find stuff in an orderly manner in a wiki
I feel that gives me a lot of wiggle-room to work with
I myself don't think it will be coming anytime soon. And before it does, I want to put my stamp on it. I think I am too controversial and too muck of a trouble maker to get invited into that one.
But the idea of a fan generated entry-level covenant sounds like the better idea. Just one covenant.
With all due respect to Mister Nephew, I think he might be looking at the situation in the wrong way.
It is evident that Ars Magica is a niche game.
And I suspect that a majority of the books sold are never actually used by players or storytellers in games.
They might serve as inspiration or they are simply a good read, but apart from the tradition books, few are used frequently.
In times, there will be an impact as there is attrition, less people buying books they don't really use anyway.
There are some wonderful people on this list that promote the game in many interesting ways but the fact is, if you want the line to prosper, you need to add new players.
At this moment, Ars Magica is an incredibly complex game to wrap your head around.
Unless you are initiated by someone with experience, your first try might end up in disaster and even then, many players just quit because of the many layers, the complexity.
Even the troupe style play can be a problem, as they don't get to play "their" character all the time.
Ars Magica begs for a starter "setting", that can introduce new players.
And now there is a way to make it happen: Kickstarter.
You don't need to invest money up front, print it and then sell it.
You try to get the money you need for the project.
If it doesn't work? Well, tough luck, no starter kit.
On the other hand, if your campaign goes well, you can even add to the project.
I can easily imagine a starter setting, a covenant and its rival.
The covenant already set with most boon and hooks, it's library, all its grogs and specialists.
Companions and Mages half-done, so that the players have a little liberty in customizing them, but with some story flaws already there (to create ready links).
And a variety of Companions and all 13 Houses to choose from.
Maps of the covenant, surroundings, the region.
And all the important elements from the rival also.
A series of stories that uses the covenant's hooks, the characters story flaws, and some other basic stories. Maybe 5 years of stories, starting the year after a Tribunal so that there is not a Tribunal just yet.
And with it a basic rule book, all the basic stuff, nothing fancy (no need for Longevity rituals for example, or an explanations of all the Tribunals).
Maybe a set of "spell" cards: One with guidelines for each set of Te/Fo + sets for Range/Duration/Target to help players create spontaneous spells.
And then you can have add-on as the Kickstarter campaign goes:
Add 5 more years of stories (so there will be a Tribunal);
Add spell cards for all the spells in the corebook;
Add Realm specific stories, to introduce more advanced concepts;
Etc.
The question now: Is Ars Magica still relevant as a role-playing game?
It might not be: RPGs have evolved and changed, the tastes of players also.
Ars Magica might become the kind of game that a big majority of people own books and never play the game.
If on the other hand we think that the game is still relevant, we need to broaden it's appeal.
And one way to do so is to try to mitigate the steep learing curve of the game, by having a starter kit.
What about a different approach: a second covenants book that instead of being expanded rules for covenants (we have one of those), is a set of 5 or 6 covenants in much greater detail with story hooks, saga integration, quick how-to-make-this-your-player-covenant guidelines, etc.
So rather than being something with the depth of a single covenant book, treat it a bit more like magi of hermes: a sourcebook of interesting covenant ideas done in more detail than the 1-2 paragraph writeups in the tribunal books. I'm talking details on key grogs/covenfolk, the magi, the library, the covenant's vis sources and notes on its interaction with the rest of the world - but each one as a single snapshot in time rather than with pages and pages showing how they grow over time.
Where I'd diverge from something like the Mistridge or Triamore books is not going into detail about the surrounding lands. The idea would be to make each covenant placeable into existing tribunals / sagas - be they canon ones or home-brew.
This would work as a new player reference for seeing how different covenants work and the kinds of stories they promote, but more importantly it'd also work as a reference work for existing players, meaning it's more likely to sell to the existing user base rather than being exclusively aimed at a potentially non-existent new player market; and more importantly advertising to the existing user base would be a much lower cost venture.
I certainly can't speak for John Nephew, given that I don't know the guy, but I can speak from the perspective of someone trying to sell a niche product.
Ars Magica has been around for a long time. It doesn't have the kind of budget to splurge on advertising that TSR pretended they had, and it doesn't have an easy vehicle to push in to new markets with. Unfortunately, given the nature of the game itself, the general buzz of the forums, the game's reputation that already exists, etc. it's probably not the kind of thing that can be solved by investing into a new sourcebook and then marketing the crap out of that sourcebook in the hope that it generates more revenue.
The absolute most powerful marketing force in the modern world is word of mouth. Word of mouth accounts for over 50% of the marketing for massive brands, such as Grand Theft Auto. For niche brands like Ars Magica, word of mouth is an even bigger force. In fact you touched on it yourself: pretty much every new player to Ars Magica is coming to the game because someone else who likes the game recommended it.
A new sourcebook aimed at new players won't increase the word of mouth sales of the game. A kickstarter campaign might, but the truth with kickstarters is they actually require marketing in and of themselves. They don't just magically happen. Money is being spent somewhere along the way, and for something really niche or outside the realm of normal public perception, you'll end up spending as much money as you raise simply creating awareness about the kickstarter - meaning it's not necessarily a vehicle for making ridiculous amounts of money. Kickstarter only works well if you are either a person who is already well known, or you have a brand that is already well known - and you're doing something with it that is both new-ish but at the same time sits comfortably enough with the public consiousness to make them want to spend money.
An Ars Magica kickstarter for a new sourcebook is probably going to do as well as the Ars Magica computer game kickstarter.
As an aside, I would love to see an Ars Magica computer game made. I think it'd help the brand, and I think it'd be a fun game as well. The problem is it wouldn't be a simple game. And right now I'm of the opinion that the best way to get an Ars Magica game to happen is for someone (me, maybe) to save up enough money to make the entire thing - either that or get funding in the more traditional business sense of showing why it would be worth doing and why it would be worth attaching the product to the Ars Magica brand. When those can be answered and answered well, that's when talking to Atlas would happen. Before then there's no point, and I'm pretty sure the 'lets kickstarter!' idea would be met with the response of 'how do you intend to make this go any differently than the Black Chicken project?' - which is exactly the right question to ask.
Incidentally... if a computer game did happen and it was super-successful and it featured a specific covenant, then publishing a covenant book of that covenant would be a really good business idea - because it'd sell. But there's a whole lot of if there that would have to turn into certainty first.
All very true. But a book of, say, seven different covenants located in different tribunals. If done right, it would be an enjoyable and useful resource for new and established players alike. There is the whole "starting saga / this could be your player's covenant" bit. But aside from that, and aside from being used as a model for building covenants, it serves as a book of storyhooks and useful setting material. Travelling to other covenants for this-or-that reason is a common McGuffin for storyguides. Having details of they place they go to can be useful, especially if they go there time and time again. Give us an example of what a typical library looks like, something characters will want to copy from. More story hooks. Make it something that current players in existing sagas with established covenants can still use. The utility for newer players will be a by-product.
You look at the situation from a marketing point of view, and it's quite interesting.
I feel though that the situation is not at all a marketing problem, but the entry level of the game for new players.
I've been playing Ars Magica for 20 years now, and I've always said good things about it all around me.
I've played with at least 30 different people in those years, promoted the games in other ways also.
Lots of people I know love to play magic-users in different games, yet when I look around me, there are no other Ars Magica group.
There are probably a lot of different reasons for that, but the steep learning curve is one the reasons I heard the most.
The corebook, even if it's the only thing you need to play, is not the best introduction for the game either as it is not the most convivial rulebook there is.
I think that the game line need a little something more, to help introduce players to the game, not only count on experienced players to do that.
Well, if you could get 90 000$ to work on an introduction rulebook/covenant/stories/whatnot, you can go a long way...
And it's not impossible. Look at this kickstarter for example: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1176616619/shadows-of-esteren-a-medieval-horror-rpg-travels
It' not a game with the respect and the long history of Ars Magica.
Yet it managed to gather an impressive amount of money.
Ars Magica has some of the best writers in the industry, and it's a mature game with lots of supplements already.
It has a lot to offer to players, so why not try to make it easy to get some new people on-board?
I find having my players not know things is overrated.
It means I can't use some plots out of the box as written. But it also means that the players have a clearer idea of what the setting is. If we set the covenant in The Greater Alps, it is useful if the players know about The Covenant of The Sinews of Knowledge or The Covenant of the icy North, so that when I say that the new covenfolk grew up at Juno's Spire it means something to them.
I agree, Dwight. There is little lost, and lots gained, if the players know stuff about the setting.
Even things like "murder mystery" stories don't actually suffer if the players know (or guess) what has happened from the very beginning. The story is about how the characters (PC and NPC) solve (or react to, or do not solve) the "murder" (or whatever the plot is).
IMO, the more good players know, the better. And good players, in my opinion are the ones who can compartmentalize the information that they know from the information that their character(s) know.
OK, guys. If this is true for most Ars players, and I'm not saying it isn't, it changes the way we should write setting material. The way plot hooks work now is a sort of "bait" system, a series of "ins" for characters so that they can be tired to a story. If the players already know the stories and the hooks, the way of expressing why they should bite on the hook because a lot different. You might have a saga design session where you said "OK, so we want to play the adventure on page 6, then the one of 12, then back to the one on 7."
Actually, thinking on this, I've run a game like that: my troupe used the Grand Campaign for Pendragon games a lot, and we really did have people say "I missed the sword coming out of the stone last time, because I was fighting in the North. I want to be one of the guys who tries to pull it out this time."
It really does work, too.
It's a really interesting way of reframing how writing Tribunals would work, now that we are coming to the end of the first circuit.
One of the things I've noticed about avid players of Ars Magica and potential players is that they all have some interest in writing, in creating stories. If you're writing, whether for pleasure or for a vocation, and you're any good at it, your characters always know less about what's going on than you do. Characters also understand the information that they are given imperfectly and jump to wild conclusions. Sometimes characters jump out from the page and tell you what they are really thinking, and it's not the same as what you're writing.
DON'T CHANGE THEM!! The hooks are the best part of the books! Honestly, I discard over half of the Tribunal stuff because it colors in all the blank spots on the map. The hooks are the absolute best part because they show different ways to introduce materials, plots and characters. It's the most useful part of every book. I love that they are small and simple. They act even more as a springboard than as a blueprint and get the brain thinking about stories in each setting.
I think this would work better as a collective project. What qworks for me (and my troupe) does not necessarily fit other people's sagas. And I like diversity.
