Leonis: If you look at the invisibility spells, you see that it states that shadows are unaffected, but can be removed seperatly with a CrIm spell...
Sorry for being short - trying to wrap up my work before I go home...
No worries!
I would say that the shadow is unaffected because the species still exists to cast the shadow, the CrIm effect I think you reference would be to then hide the shadow... that's the problem, I think, it's far too unclear and I think there's room for interpretation there. Perhaps I'll send a query off to the berklist.
-Ben.
"ANY" shadow within 7 miles is...really powerful....A human mind is much easier to detect than a shadow/darkness (IMO)...what would the level be to detect every human in a 7 mile radius????
My general feeling is this spell should be VERY difficult (cool as heck, but difficult). Darkness isn't a thing. Darkness is an absence of light....So using the darkness as an Arcane Connection..hmmm
My take:
Rego-Corpus
Req: Intellego-Ignem (locating areas devoid of light)
R: Sight Dur: Mom T: Ind
Base:35+10 (Req's)= Final Level: 45
When casting this spell, the Magus spends one round searching for each target area (darkness) scanned. At any point, the Magus may choose one of the target areas, and transport himself there. The Magus may scan as many target areas equal to his lowest Art score(note the requisites). Any additional areas the Magus scans for requires a Concentration roll versus the number of areas scanned.
Complete or near darkness adds +10 to the Concentration roll as there are plenty of handy places to go.
Example: The lowest Art used is an 8. The Magus may scan/locate up to eight dark areas. If the Magus wishes to continue scanning/looking, he must roll a Concentration roll of eight or better. After scanning the ninth, he would need a Concentration roll of nine, to scan for the next.
"Remember that shadow is the absense of the image, countered with a CrIm spell in the same way a CrIg can bring light or warmth."
No, see the PeIm sidebar on invisibility spells. Getting rid of a shadow is CrIg or maybe ReIg.
unc.edu/~murphy/rabenstein/spell_colour.html
talks about spell "colours", ways of limiting magic for colorful effects; seems like apropos house rules for this shadowmage.
Thanks for the pointer, there it was definitively:
pg 146: "Note also that shadows are due to the physical body blocking the light. Destroying something's shadow is thus Creo Ignem, or possibly Rego Ignem, not Perdo Imaginem."
I think that makes sensing shadows squarely Intelligo Ignem.
-Ben.
Just had a read and it seems very interesting. Has anyone used these rules in their saga? even on a brief look i could feel the munchkin within me stirring and thinking up devious abuses.
OTOH it would neatly solve my shadow problem, as would the Discovery of a new range of shadow. I'm getting HoH:TL in a few days so i'll look at running it as a discovery.
I haven't read the suggested link yet, but the feeling in my troupe last night was "if you want a nonstandard range, you need a breakthrough."
This was caveated by listed nonstandards already described, and I think I'd tend to agree with them. For a single spell, you'd need a breakthrough. For two spells, you'd need to maintain concentration on the first-- and have an acceptable range, I'm not sure sight would cut it, unless you'd already augmented your sight with a spell that let you see regardless of intervening objects or gone with target:structure and range:touch. Otherwise, you don't have the arcane connection to make the jump feasible.
Just my thoughts.
-Ben.
Colours might give good mechanics for simulating non-Hermetic magi. Give the hedgie "Art" scores, and apply colours to taste, letting them do impressive things but hey, no general magic resistance. Or let Ex Misc buy it as a Major Hermetic Virtue and make sure they take more Hermetic Flaws to compenate.
Ok, the shadow magic discussion at the old forum is hidden deep within another thread. I simply lack the time to go through everythread to find that excellent discussion.
While there are two discussions of 'Shadow Magic', this is the longer so I will try to address both subjects here. Simply put, 'Shadow Magic' is beyond the scope of Hermetic Magic.
Now from time to time I watch anime and they always seem to have cool shadow magic like abilities in anime (shadows are creepy and fun), but in terms of Hermetic Magic their manipulation isn't easy. I would allow for breakthroughs to allow for this potential, but the core game doesn't have any precedent to suggest the material that is being tossed around. I'll try to detail why I believe this.
Pg: 78 Ignem: This form concerns fire, heat, and light.
Ok I sort of feel this says it all. Ignem concerns light, not shadow.
But lets break it down more.
Pg: Perdo Ignem Lvl2: Greatly reduce the amount of light in an area.
So Hermetic Magic can remove light from an an area. That area has an "absence of light." Remember that Ignem "concerns... light."
Therefore Ignem can not concern an area with an 'absence of light'.
Shadow is the 'product' created when light is removed from an area. Ignem magic can not then manipulate the area where no light exists.
One could make a spell that allowed them to see through a fire which you have an Arcane Connection to. One could make a spell that allowed you to teleport to a fire which you have an Arcane Connection to. But one could not 'remove' the fire with magic then use ignem magic to see through or jump through the area where light/fire has been removed. It's not there anymore, so Ignem can't affect it.
Concerning: Sense the Darkness
InIg25 R:Personal/Sense Shadow D: Sun T:
With this spell the Caster can feel/sense all dark areas with no or nearly no light in a range up to 7 miles, after the spell is cast he instantly knows where a shadow is, if he wants to cast a spell affecting or involving a shadow.
(Base 2, +2Sun,+5 "Sense Shadow" (4 magnitudes for sight and one for a non-standart-hermetic range))
I don't believe this spell is correct.
Intellego Ignem:
Lvl 1: Sense one property of a fire.
Lvl 2: Sense all mundane properties of a fire.
Become aware of all fires within a target area.
Lvl 3: Detect the traces of fires which burned within the last lunar month.
All of these parameters concern fire. Not shadow. Shadow is not a property of fire.
Shadows of the Fires Past senses where fires have been. It does not sense where fires have not been.
Well Without Light "Removes light from a structure."
Ignem "concerns... light"
Well Without Light does not 'create' shadow. It removes of an attribute of Ignem. This spell could not work in a black cave as there is no light to affect.
Finally, if Ignem concerned shadow, then Muto Ignem could be used to create light in a cave that lacked light or fire. It can not. Remember that Creo Ignem creates light, not shadow. All these points suggest to me that while shadows, specifically the absence of light can be 'made' by Ignem magic (specifically by removeing the light), Ignem magic has no influence over the absence of light, or 'shadows'.
Having been a spoil sport, I think one could ascribe some of these attributes to color. For instance you said your magus can already 7 Leauge Stride. I think it's perfectly acceptable to say it 'appears' as if he steps into a shadow and appears out of shadow. But at the end of the day it's still a Rego Corpus spell. In fact I would allow such a penality to be taken as a flaw of somekind. A prerequisite or psychological requisitie. But if you want your character to step "into" a shadow and 'come out' another shadow a new form in necessary, "Shadow". Shadow concerns the absence of light. A breakthrough would be needed to created this new form. Furthermore Ignem clearly establishes that Hermetic Magic can only affect fires at a distance by possessing an Arcane Connection to the fire.
If one wants to step "into" ANY shadow and "come out" ANY shadow, a second breakthrough would be needed to overcome the need for an arcane connection as shadows are temporaly things likely unlinked and unlinkable by arcane connection. Then again, if one possess the form "Shadow" I suppose you could cut a peice of a shadow and carry it with you. That peice could be your AC avoiding the need to make this second breakthrough.
No argument there. I'm firmly in the camp that says range/target/duration:shadow would require a minor breakthrough for each aspect.
Who doesn't love Ninja Scroll?
But ignem also deals with cold, does it not? It can manipulate the lack of heat in an area, why not the lack of light? To paraphrase cheesy fantasy movies, you cannot have light without also having darkness... the two seem inextricably linked, and if so, then ability to control of one would imply the ability to control the other-- or do you disagree?
I think it is explained clearly enough, that ignem deals with fire, light, and heat, as well as the absence of light and heat-- shadow and cold. The PeIm sidebar on pg146 pretty clearly denotes that shadow is ignem. The spells being suggested are sensing a lack of light. Would a Perdo requisite to the InIg be appropriate in your mind?
We both agree on that. I would suggest this:
Sense the Castle's Nooks InIg20
Base 2 [Become aware of all fires in a target area] + 1touch, +1diameter, +3structure, +1Pe requisite [since we're looking specifically for the absence of light, and we add to the effectiveness, but I don't know that this is necessary.]
As the magus lays his hand on the wall of a building, he gains awareness of each and every shadow with the structure, as if he were looking at it. He simply "knows" where each shadow is for the duration. Should a shadow disappear because a light source eliminates it, the magus knows it. If the magus stops touching the structure, he loses awareness of the shadows within it.
You're right, it's not a property of fire, it's a property of light-- or more appropriately the absense of light. Light is ignem, it's absense is also an aspect of ignem. The guidelines make no distinction of a change in magnitude or alteration of guideline when dealing with heat instead of fire or light instead of heat, etc... why the distinction here?
I agree with your conclusion here, though I would substitute 'black' for 'unlit', but I'm not sure what your point is. Can you elaborate?
I'm sure you meant Creo Ignem, not Muto Ignem.
If the absense of heat is covered by ignem, why is the absense of light not included?
Which is why I would say that either a minor breakthrough or an effect that provides constant awareness of shadows within a certain target/range for a period would allow one to then teleport to them. In this latter sense, the magus isn't teleporting through them at all. He's just able to "see" them and go to their location, just like 7LS.
I'm not sure colors really have any bearing on the matter, but I'll need to think further on that before I'm certain.
In which case, what do you think of the breakthrough tree I'd suggested in an earlier post? Is it sufficient for a limited range:shadows?
-Ben.
Ok first it may be that we simply disagree and this is unresolveable, but here goes for sake of discussion...
Ever see the TV show follow up? It's somewhere between terrible and I want to see how this ends.
Yup. It does this by removeing heat.
Remember: Pg: 78 Ignem: This form concerns fire, heat, and light.
It doesn't 'create' cold. It removes HEAT. One of the attributes that Ignem is concerned with.
Here we disagree. I don't think it can manipulate the lack of heat. It can manipulate the heat present, which at the end of the day likely has the same result. But this subtle difference may be where we disagree. Because of this, I don't believe Ignem can manipulate 'the lack of light". It can manipulate light. It can remove it developing an area that lacks light, but it can not manipulate 'the lack of light'.
Again, we are interpreting things differently as I feel this blurb supports my case. Pg 146 Perdo Imaginem says, "Note also that shadows are due to the physical body blocking the light. Destroying something's shadow thus Creo Ignem, or possibly Rego Ignem..."
No where here does it say that shadows are an aspect or form of light. Shadows are due to the physical body BLOCKING the light. So shadows exist where there is a lack of light. Ignem concerns light, not a lack of light. Creo Ignem could create more light, which would remove a shadow, and Rego Ignem could bring more light to an area, again removeing a shadow. But a shadow is essentially the space where there is no light. That space, where there is an absence of light it unaffected by Ignem. To affect this area, one uses Ignem to alter the light, not the lack therefore. This is a sublte distinction, but it's the distinction that explains why there are no shadow magics in the Hermetic system.
Actually, yes. Because now one would be trying to sense the areas where light is not. I think the Perdo req would aid in this.
Because I feel the absense of light is not an aspect of ignem. This distinction is the reason no Hermetic shadow magic exists in the game.
No, actually I meant Muto Ignem. If Ignem covers the absence of light. Then Ignem doesn't need light in order to accomplish things. A dark cave, a place that is an absence of light, could be illuminated via Muto Ignem Magic. "Change one characteristic of the absence of light."
This isn't the case. Ignem can't affect the absence of light. It can create light with Creo. It could 'pull' light in with Rego. But in an area where there is no light, Muto Ignem can not work. Therefore Ignem has not influence over the absence of light.
Agreed. I think this would be the development of a new Form.
I have a soft spot for color so long as it's harmless. I typically let a lot slide on the grounds of color. If someone gets clever and starts to use color as a means to exploit the game I crush it! 
I'd have to look it over again, but my gut says I'm cool with dat. 
What the original poster is trying to do here sounds like it would work well with Arcadian Travel, from Houses of Hermes: Mystery Cults. That book also mentions that animate shadows can be created or changed using CrIm or MuIm Animae Magic effects, not Ignem, and introduces a group of Merinitae called the Shadow-Masters, who use shadows as a philosophical metaphor for reality but who also really like them.
I got the book about a week ago. I'm to obsessed with Criamon material to look at the rest. But I like this answer. Perhaps I'll have to actually look the rest of the book now. 