Size Adjustment in Parameters

I consider Size to be something related to but different then the other parameters and can be changed without changing the nature of the spell in question.

Basically, increasing the size of an Aegis doesn't require any breakthroughs, its the same spell.

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Only if you include the parenthetical level calculation in the paragraph description. I don't. I consider the level calculation to just be design notes and not part of the spell description proper.
Outside of the level calculation, any adjustments for size are only rarely mentioned.

Rather, the other way around. If you include level calculation, then it works as you say. If you do not, then it does not work as you say. Go choose any spell with + magnitudes for size. Here, let's grab this one:

R: Voice, D: Conc, T: Part
Causes water to churn wildly, overturning small water craft and forcing Swim rolls at –6, in a circular area 20 paces across.

(Base 5, +2 Voice, +1 Conc, +1 Part, +1 size)

So are you saying that "20 paces across" would remain the same if you redesign it with +2 size or no extra size? This does go into the messiness I pointed out before about being clever and using formulas all over the place rather than fixed numbers, of course.

Gah! You have a point there.
Conclusion: We need a better definition of "same effect" or a different definition of similar spells that does not rely on "same effect".

Yes, that is something a couple of us specifically requested in an earlier thread about general and similar spells.

OK, so this is drifting into the "Similar Spells" problem, but there does seem to be consensus that FFM should be able to change size, and it should be possible to change the size of Aegis.

How about something along the lines of:

Magnitudes for greater size are a part of the Target parameter, and can be manipulated in the same way as the Target parameter, whether through Virtues, MuVi, or other techniques. However, changing the size does not change the Target parameter.

And added to AoH: Magi may invent versions of this spell with different size modifiers, to cover larger covenants.

Does that look likely to work? (Ignoring the "similar spells" problem, at least for now.)


I like it.

Looks fine to me.

I believe that is the way a lot of groups already play it. Looks good to me.


I think the wording is a bit confusing with both "size are a part of the Target parameter" and "changing the size does not change the Target parameter", but I think I understand what is meant and that looks fine.


How about simplly:

Is there a reason, other than carving out space for altering the size of AotH, for “changing the size does not alter the target parameter”? Seems to me the hard-to-find rule that AotH can only be altered with original research a) needs to be mentioned with the spell and b) can have that carve out there without confusing things with a general statement about how “changing the size does not alter the target parameter.”

One reason is similar spells.
Intuitively, Conjuring the BIGGER Mystic Tower should be similar to Conjuring the Mystic Tower. Because it clearly has a different, albeit closely related effect, if you assume that +2 size alters the Target parameter, it's no longer similar.

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Yes, it would be because it would be the same effect at different Target. I agree with explicitly saying size is part of target I just don’t think the general rule around size not altering target is useful since it really is only an issue with AotH.

A lot of people, myself included, do not consider conjuring a bigger albeit similar building "the same effect". So it might work for you, but not for many of us.

That is my understanding of why they are explicitly placing it within the target parameter. So that doing the same thing, just affecting a larger amount of it, is similar under the “same effect at different RDTs.” Or do you think it can be both a change to the effect of the spell and a change to the RDT parameters?

By the book, creating a sheep is closely related to creating a cow. There's no way to say that they are the same effect, differing only in size. However, while you can create a sheep as a base Ind of Animal, you can't create a cow as a base Ind of Animal. So to move from sheep to cow you need not only to change the effect, but also to throw in +1 magnitude for size. If you do not disqualify that +1 from changing the Target parameter, the two spells cannot be similar; while for many of us they should intuitively be similar. Does that make sense?

Yes, but the larger tower made out of a single stone is not like going from sheep to cow, it is more like making a sheep but a larger one which I would see as a similar spell.

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Then maybe that was a poor example. But I hope the sheep-and-cow one has convinced you about the rationale behind the provision "changing the size does not alter the target parameter”.