Size and Shape of the Post-Schism Order

I remember to have read it here on the first or second page of that discussion (but I may be wrong)...
My husband wants it to be 10 times more... I feel it a little bit to much, I would say around 5 times more

About the subject of the discussion, before schism war, I am not sure there were a lot less magi than in 1220... as a lot have been killed during the schism war... and even probably more before as there were all the diedne magi (and it seems that some diedne magi are still living in ex miscellenea or merinita house, with a terrible dark secret, but strong spontaneous power... I hope that some day we will know more on that late house (maybe with Hibernia tribunal?)

While we do not have official word from on high (David Chart) ,
certain line authors do not like the idea of a canon definition of House Diedne or its Mysteries.
This , as was pointed out , could alienate a lot of players if they did not like
how the chamberpot was nailed.

As a research-heavy type of person, I have frequently been frustrated by the lack of detail in the background of Ars Magica (I am the guy who would love complete succession lists for the Primi of all twelve houses, and more diachronic details about how various institutions developed, etc). However, I very much agree with the sentiment that Diedne, at least, should remain a mystery. It is used in too many multifaceted ways, and no matter how you slice it you will displease some combination of the Pro-Diedne, the Anti-Diedne, and the It's Complicated crowds.

it could be a mystery cult as Merinita or others...
I agree that we can keep some mysteries about Diedne, but if it to much mysterious things, then why to give the opportunity to take the virtue Diedne magic?

The problem of course is that because they didn't say anything, each of us have imagined something on Diedne, so, many people won't be happy of what Ars Magica could give on them...

Anyway, I don't see a tribunal such as Hibernia without Diedne

I quite easily can see the Hibernian Tribunal without lots of details on Diedne, given that all we've been told about the House is that they were exterminated and last seen alive over 2 centuries ago. :wink:

I like having the mystery of what happened to the Diedne always around, the threat of their potential return, the occasional NPC or PC who has secretly preserved some of their magic in their lineage, even the saga-specific option of having one of them return 'in the flesh'. But I would be opposed (not vehemently so , I suppose, but definitely opposed) to any serious statements about their continue existence, revelation of their guilt or innocence, or revelation of their 'mysteries' in a future supplement. The time for that has passed. Let them be among the Big Mysteries of the setting.

Do the Diedne have a strong Hibernian tie? I thought they were Gallic. I'm pretty sure Britain was settled by Ex Misc magi with no particular ties to Diedne but I don't remember any particular mention of Ireland.

I'm not a big fan of the "Ye Olde Celtic = Druids = Diedne" equation.

The historical knowledge of the original authors was somewhat suspect in a few instances, so the diedne = druid = celtic equation quite fits the bill for when their background was created. So, in old books the druid_diedne link of Ireland exists. Not anymore AFAIK, but it still lingers.


about Diedne in Hibernia, you can read resentfulness of Gruagachans in Scotland against Irish druids (not yet Diedne)...
Historically, there were not only druids in Britain, but also in all celtic areas, such as Hibernia...
So there should be druids also in Galatia (central Turkey) which is not anymore under control of Thebes tribunal, since arabic invasions
druids in Britanny, in Wales, in Ireland - maybe also in Scotland...

If there are druids, there are certainly Diedne as well... and I see very well Hibernian tribunal being the main places where hidden Diedne are left - don't forget Diedne is originating from Irland...

Not in canon, as far as I know. Since the domus magna of House Diedne was in Brittany, there is a good chance she was from a Breton / Gaulish tradition. Of course, this isn't necessarily so - Tytalus was Neapolitan, yet Fudarus is also in Brittany.


I don't know what is the quality of that site, but it is what I remembered...

After the defeat of Vercingetorix in 52 BC, Caesar's armies began a violent campaign of suppression against the Druids of Gaul, a persecution which spread with the Empire. Because the Romans were unable to conquer Ireland and Scotland, these lands became a haven for Druids fleeing Roman persecution. Some Druids, having kin in Germany also fled to those lands, eventually blending into the local population.

It was from these Gaulish refugees in Ireland that Diedne descended. Blessed with visions, she knew upon sighting Bonisagus that her future lay with this man. However, the Chief Druid, after listening to Bonisagus, would have nothing to do with this "Roman Wizard" or his "Roman Order". Diedne spoke at length with Bonisagus, learning what his hopes for the Order were. Diedne tried to convince the Chief Druid to join the Order, but still he would have nothing to do with the Romans. Diedne left with Bonisagus, taking half the local Druids with her. aware that this is fan-written, mostly for prior editions (mainly 3e and 4e). As far as I'm aware, Diedne's origin has not been defined in any 5e source. As always, if you want an Irish Diedne, you can have one, but it's not part of canon.


I found those information at several places and also in the scenario the tempest
ok, it is not 5th edition, but I don't see why it could not be true...

you don't have more proof that she is from brittany...

Don't forget , that you can't have a Size & Shape of the Post-Schism Order Bonus greater than your Score in Population Theory.

Haaaa. Ok, that one had me laughing out loud.

My point with Diedne is, whether or not she canonically descended from Ireland (and in 5th edition at the least, this has not been stated), by the books her House has been exterminated and there has been no sighting of a Diedne magus in just over 200 years. Therefore, I can quite easily see a Hibernian Tribunal Book that did not go into much detail behind the most cursory of historical details (which do not get me wrong, I would salivate over) concerning the fallen House.

The Order of Hermes book by Jonathan Tweet (Lion Rampant , 1990)
has no mention of Diedne Magi in any of the Covenants of Hibernia write-ups on page 52.

All pre-5th Ed books are no longer canon , but if there are any other publications ,
not web-based fan-fic on the Hibernian Tribunal , i am unaware of them.

Not to derail the conversation, but I often think the Deidne spontanious magic virtue shouldn't come with the dark secret. Unless you want to be a 'druid' in 1220. I would think after 200 odd years, the origin of the magic would be forgotten by the teachers. Depending on how many 'generations' precede the character, 1st generation would be taught by refugees hiding their nature and heritage. Keeping some traditions and trappings of Deidne, but slowly becoming a strange variation of some other house by 3rd or 4th 'generation'.

It raises the question of how the legacy Deidne actually teach their virtue. Perhaps it's through a bloody initiation script that preserves all the stereotypes of their legacy. Some sort of continuity with the pre-1000ad Deidne seems implied by the dark secret requirement. Regardless, it seems like there should be more of a story here than just saying one's trainer had the virtue.

And most of the time its also a VERY unbalanced "Virtue". On its own its not really strong enough to be a Major virtue except for an optimised character, and adding a Major Flaw to what is mostly a minor Virtue, thats quite nasty.

And i think your assumption of a few "Diedne lines" where the origin has been more or less lost is quite likely.

Doubt it. If that was true its hard to believe there would have been any doubt about the "evil ways" of Diedne in the first place.