So has anyone run a pre-schism war game?

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

I'm tempted to run a very different kind of Ars Magica game. The game would start around the late 780s, where the PCs are some of the first apprentices of the founder's apprentices. The game would be reasonably fast paced and likely political, where they shape the future of the Order and also start changing mundane history. No worrying about "why hasn't the Order nuked history as we know it?" because the PCs will get to do that.

I've spent the last two hours searching through threads and found much discussion of what the pre schism Order was like, but little about any experiences Storytelling games in this time period. I'm curious if anyone has, or anything to share. As always, any thoughts on how to run such a premise would be welcome. :slight_smile:

2

We did some flashback stuff to the early Order days. One of the major things going on would be what is essentially the warzone of the British Isles against Damhaidh the Spider. Don't have the exact timeframe, but during the period you're talking about I believe would be when the war would start, the invasion and initial failure against Damhaidh, Pralix rallying the local Hedges, and her eventual triumph, and then defection to Ordo Miscellenea, before becoming House Ex Miscellenea. The Order wouldn't be too strong just yet or numerous, which is why one renegade wizard (Damhaidh) would be such a threat. My thinking is he was right up there with the Founders in power and had a decent amount of his own wizards to help him.

3

I've played in a game that originally started before the schism war (in 2nd or 3rd AM). It was extremely high-powered and quite a lot of the original PCs' characters were still around in the 1650s (when I played) and were very very dangerous (eg one killed the entire Norse pantheon, permanently. Another took Wales on an Atlantic cruise...).
Mundane history was much altered, but some of those powerful ex-PCs had put a lot of it back together again.

I'd suggest you start by deciding how powerful you want the Order to be (as individual magi; the Order as a whole can't be very strong) vs how powerful you want mundane forces to be (Vikings, Charlemagne's Empire, individual 'nations' within the British Isles eg Mercia) vs magical/faerie beings vs Hedge wizards and the Order of Odin.

Are your Founders really powerful? Or just slightly better than weak hedge wizards? Is the Oder of Odin a) real; b) strong; c) individuals? Etc.

One thing that breaks down very quickly as soon as you take an in-depth look at it, is the early history of the Order. There aren't enough magi quickly enough to account for the setting up of separate Tribunals as early as listed in the rule books. Even if you allow mass 'join or die', the resulting magi can't know enough Hermetic magic themselves to train apprentices in actual Hermetic magic.

I ran a game where the PCs were part of the 2nd batch of Hermetic magi trained up, starting in 780. The biggest mistake I made was in making the founders strong, which led to books being too good. The next biggest problem was not really having hermetic enemies available - the various covenants were too spread out to be usable as rivals, unless you limit the Order to a particular geographical location and therefore don't have the domus magnae in their official locations and keep everything as one Tribunal - and therefore Magic Resistance was hard for most enemied to come by. And since I'd made books too strong, the PCs were able to affect mundane or hedge-type enemies far too easily with their spells. I made Damhain-Allaich (sp? Nobles' Parma - I can't be bothered to look up his name) into an Infernalist with most of the Goetic Arts including Ablating, so he was very dangerous... however, the PCs throwing a lot of vis into a spell still got through his MR... and then he botched his defensive spell and went on an extended trip to Hell (twilight equivalent).

The biggest restriction, I think, on PC magi is the Code of Hermes, so hermetic rivals/enemies are the most effective long-term plot devices because they can't be scryed on legally. Plus, the presence of hermetic magi in the area means that PCs have to be more careful with their mundane relationships. The early Order lacks these plot elements if you stick to Hermetic History.

I have quite a few ideas about how to do an early setting better, so feel free to ask if you want (to be bored?).

Gilarius

4

We are just finishing the War against davnalleus.

The basic profiles for the characters are:

PRALIX: Spirit Master. Summoning, Binding. Puissant Bargain, Chtonic Magic. Driven. High Presence. High leadership, charm and bargain. Leadworker, IIRC.

IGNES FESTI: We used the Hyperorean Hymnist template. Pserimpseu and Azai hymns. Magical Blood (Focus in flames, Pride flaw) Minor focus in Flames. We used a variation that allowed him to cast spells using +1D6 (we use D6, not D10) to his spells instead of a fixed casting total, and so he could also use Penetration with them. He was also allowed to cast spontaneous spells using vis (1 pawn per intended magnitude).

BRUDE DEATHLESS: Standard gruagachan. He was more advanced than the other 2, having an external soul. (Hedge) prestige. His team of gruagacvh and trained grogs to fight in giant form had some epic battles against similarly-styled groups on the other side (but the other sincluded real giants as well!).

BLACK EYE: Folk Witch. She is an invented character that favours her shape as a crow. She was one of the most powerful characters in the saga, in the end, using a multiplicity of abilities to achieve pretty nice results. She had Hermetic Herbalism, Hex and Chtonic Magic instead of Healing and Cursing.

CORMAC: Storm warlock (elementalist). Uses the whistle up the wind mechanics and the Elementalist abilities that allow you to enslave a spirit (I do not control these rules, so no details here). A last addition after the death of Ignes Festi.

MOOD BOOKS: The Northmen saga by Bernard Cromwell has helped wonders to set up the mood for us. King Hereafter (McBeth's story) is also good even if it is set in a later (XI century) period.

DEVELOPMENT OF THE MINI SAGA
We have disregarded the rest of the OoH since they do not play a large part in this mini saga. Allies include folk witches, gruagachan (very few in number; most of them were with Davnalleus), damhaidh druidsan, and Nightwalkers. The opposite party had more or less the same components, but with more gruagachan and Damhaidh Druidsan as well as the Sluagh (Infernal Nightwalkers) and more dark fae. Weather witches (whistle up the wind) and Animal masters are also present on both camps.

The Diedne have been portrayed as Chtonic Infernalists mechanically (adding Ceremony on top of that), but using powers that are not infernal. They have not played a magical part in the war, preferring to centre in their own conflicts with the Vikings and the vitkir, since those are happening at the same time. The contact we had with the Diednes were cautious and tense, but ended up badly and this allowed the PC to say things like "In the time of need you are abandoning us! You will end up paying for this betrayal!". "Player Augury" powers FTW.

There have been contacts with Vitkir, but nothing definitive came out of it except a negotiation that ended with the summoning of the Manx sea spirit to allow free passage for the viking ships of Olaf Sigurdson (fictional character) for 10 years in exchange for an item that cast a powerful light that we used in the battle of the False Sun. Really useful item. The vitkir have so far refused to join the war effort, though, even if they are making overtures now that they have seen us emerge as the victor. We had a side scene about Saxons enslaving a pair of vitkir to learn their secrets, just for fun.

Davnalleus has already fled, and we are thinking about running the formation of the House or not. It is likely that we will not since we already had a highly political end-game for our past saga. After this we will start on our Order of the Hedgies saga in Triamore.

Hope that helps, even if it is a different kind of saga than what you are looking for. We used this as a test bed for our hedgie saga (power levels and the like), so we handwaved a lot of things and does not seem to be exactly what you want (not hermetic at all) but it worked well for us.

Cheers,
Xavi

5

Gilarius, what are your suggestions on how to do an early order saga better?

My personal thoughts are:

1.) Hardly any books at all, other than "Primers" say, Lv 5 Q15, Lv 6, Q21 kind of books that a founder can write in a season and pass around so that others can quickly learn an Art high enough to take an apprentice.

2.) Lots of vis, lots of high power magical Auras

3.) Faster saga,

4.) More powerful supernatural beings that oppose the expansion of the Order

5.) Emphasize the "arms race" mentality between the different houses and covenants to expand as fast as possible and claim as many resources as possible

6.) No emphasis on maintaing canon Ars History. The point would be that the players influence things in their own direction.

Xavi, thanks for sharing. Did your group fixate on maintaining canon Ars History?

6

Yes we did. We do that quite frequently. We define what we want to achieve and we discuss until we reach a consensus. Works well for stuff like Visions as well. We also roll for premonitions at the start of the session to see if it will play any role, for example. This was an experimental campaign to test the hedge magicians and what could be achieved with that. We played this mini saga as a background for this exercise. It has been FUN, and that is what matters :slight_smile: And we also learned quite some stuff about hedgies. They can be tough!

7
  1. Almost no books at all. None on Arts, or make Arts be 'difficult' (cost xp like abilities) to start with and let Bonisagus come up with breakthroughs periodically to make them easier to learn. Have a few primers on Magic Theory, since that is the 'big idea'. Since enemies won't have parma, don't let Art totals get high.
    Alternatively, make the Order grow much slower - have just 11 covenants, close enough to one another and therefore be able to have rival Hermetic magi.
  2. Yes. But have powerful magical beings in those auras.
  3. Faster in which definition? More adventures, closer together so less seasons to do lab work? Or faster time passing?
  4. See 2 above, but also make the Order of Odin exist, or have a local organised group - perhaps the Druids that Diedne came from be enemies?
  5. Works if you limit the Order to start with (alternative in point 1), otherwise each House is able to grab as much as it can already.
  6. Nope, I wouldn't bother trying to keep canon - however there's nothing to stop you having similar events happen...perhaps your schism war will not be house based, but be expansionists vs hidden masters...

Depending on where you want to base your saga, there are a lot of mundane events that happen eg Europe-wide power struggles between Muslim and Christian, plus the Byzantine Roman Empire trying to re-conquer Europe. Divine and Infernal events. The End of the World in 1000 - apparently a common belief at the time, complicated by no-one knowing what year it was...

I have more ideas, but I have mundane activities to do now!

8

Totally agreed. You could also have some arts be unavailable at first.

Likewise, I'd make some guidelines unavailable or harder (say, up the magnitude of all Ignem spells by 1), and come up with breakthrough that make them more like what we know.
So, for exemple, in the first years, every 2 year, a difficult art becomes "normal", due to the founder's cooperation, a new art is introduced, until you've got the whole "basic hermetic magic"... but with restrictions about guidelines and/or harder guidelines.
In addition to that, every 10 years, have another breakthrough that introduces new guidelines, or makes Ignem magic easier (lifting the penalty).

This should allow you to give the impression that, from rough beginnings, hermetic magic quickly develops into something powerful and encompassing, as more and more magics are integrated and the core arts perfected.
The only question is: When a difficult art becomes normal, do the players keep their XP and get a new score (the new insight magnifies their knowledge), or do they keep the score and build from that (The scope of Ignem was expanded, not their knowledge). I'd tend towards the former, but the later has its merits, too.

9

Totally agreed. You could also have some arts be unavailable at first.

Likewise, I'd make some guidelines unavailable or harder (say, up the magnitude of all Ignem spells by 1), and come up with breakthrough that make them more like what we know.
So, for exemple, in the first years, every 2 year, a difficult art becomes "normal", due to the founder's cooperation, a new art is introduced, until you've got the whole "basic hermetic magic"... but with restrictions about guidelines and/or harder guidelines.
In addition to that, every 10 years, have another breakthrough that introduces new guidelines, or makes Ignem magic easier (lifting the penalty).

This should allow you to give the impression that, from rough beginnings, hermetic magic quickly develops into something powerful and encompassing, as more and more magics are integrated and the core arts perfected.
The only question is: When a difficult art becomes normal, do the players keep their XP and get a new score (the new insight magnifies their knowledge), or do they keep the score and build from that (The scope of Ignem was expanded, not their knowledge). I'd tend towards the former, but the later has its merits, too.

10

The problem I have with starting off with a neutered HM is that magi won't develop it if hedge magic + parma is better.

There might not be any books in 780CE, but I think all Arts and nearly all core guidelines are present, not as difficult Arts, representing B's main breakthrough.

By 11C, I expect there to be many, many books. In a saga whose SC was particularly nasty, the Order might not have recovered completely even in 13C.

But MMVs.