some questions from someone new to the game.

Point of order: there is a known form of magic that can resurrect the dead, that being Holy Methods from RoP: the Divine. Integrating the guideline will be tricky, though, because of the Limit of the Soul (which almost certainly is a facet of the Limit of the Divine) and because Holy Methods don't have a Magic Theory (you might be able to "integrate" it off Holy Magic though).


For a first game, I would strongly recommend staying far away from the other traditions. There's a lot to deal with just with Hermetic Magic and the OoH, maybe a few faeries and demons, and of course mundane authorities. The core rulebook is enough to create a variety of one-trick hedgies (shapeshifting, entrancing music, etc.)



This is a Divine power. It has nothing what-so-ever to do with any of the limits on Hermetic theory.
It is not in any way relevant for what can or cannot be done with Hermetic Magic.
This is fairly important.

That depends on whether Holy Method guidelines, or other Realm Magic, can be Integrated or not, which is unclear because if I'm not mistaken, Realm Magic predates the integration rules. If he's looking for a breakthrough and wants to use Holy Methods for Insight (and the SG is okay with a Hermetic Breakthrough on the Limit of the Soul), I don't see any reason why he couldn't try.

No. If they are integrated, you will have created a hermetic version, which then has to obey the Hermetic Limits (unless these have been seperately changed).
Non-hermetic magics do not have to be limited by the Hermetic Limits (eg: see Energy Magic, Folk Witches, Hedge Magic).
Divine supernatural methods/powers are, by definition, limited by the Divine not any general limits on the powers of the Magic Realm.

...that's what I'm talking about, though. A Hermetic Breakthrough integration based on Holy Methods to resurrect the dead in violation of the Limit of the Soul. It's no different from integrating Energy Magic.

Actually, it could be very different.

The Limit of the Soul may derive from the Limit of the Divine, at which point nothing Magic could ever break it. Holy Methods are Divine, so they can break it anyway.

IOW: It may turn out that only Holy Magi could make use of such an integration.

Fundamentaly, yes. It is very different.

Energy Magic is a trick that already belong with a magical tradition, it draws upon power from the Magic Realm.

Holy Methods (including the Resurrection-thing) draw upon either the Will of God or the Divine Realm, depending on how you see the Divine.

This is a very fundamental difference.

Been a while since I read RoP:Divine, but I was thinking resurrection was essentially the will of God (think it's specifically worded as such). I suppose someone might be able to use a Holy Method to convince God, according to whatever Holy Method they have, that the person should be raised from the dead. I somehow doubt that said method can be integrated.
It would certainly not be holy to do such work, trying to have Hermetic magi capable of raising the dead.

Re : Raising the dead

Other than Lazarus, are there any other instances of people being raised from the dead in the Abrahamic religious texts?

My advice re: raising the dead, hedge traditions, etc. is the same as others: steer clear of them until you've got a handle on the Hermetic system.

I've seen this happen before: a player decides the want to play something 'special', so you get someone making up a gruagach or a folk witch or something. But then if the game gets off the ground and you make it past the first year, the player of the 'special' character starts to feel a bit left out. They don't get to make use of arts books. They don't see the same power growth, etc. that their hermetic counterparts do.

There is absolutely no question that 'hedge' magi can be immensely powerful. A decent hedge magus can give a hermetic magus of even advanced years a run for their money, but the hedgie absolutely must play smart. Hermetic magic is, despite its limitations, insanely flexible. Hermetic magi that are outside of their baby-years are not conjurers of cheap tricks; they're capable of incredible feats of power.

A magus who is less than 10 years out of apprenticeship is very much a newbie. In terms of potency they're not a whole lot better than apprentices.

Magi tend to hit their 'mastery' years at around 30 years post-gauntlet (so around 50-60 actual years). They'll have their arts at good scores. They'll have their focuses worked out. They'll have a nice solid range of spells to draw from. They'll have a familiar, a talisman, a longevity ritual. By mastery I don't mean that they're the top of their game, but instead that they're no longer primarily about learning how to wizard.

IMO, until you've had a chance to see what a magus at 30+ years can actually do, I'd advise steering clear of the hedge traditions and outside influences. There's more than enough to play with entirely within Hermetic theory; the only thing to note is that Hermetic theory is NOT Mage traditions - you won't make the two fit. It's square peg, round hole. But the hedge traditions won't make the square peg fit; they'll just introduce a whole lot more pegs that also aren't round. :slight_smile:

so basically the 2 major limits ca't be broken by any magic.(other than the divine)
how does this explain alchemy/? i saw it on a book. transforming yourself in a magical creature breaks the limit of essential nature right?

speaking of limits how does one learn a virtue. i don't think i saw an xp cost anywhere.
let'ssay i have diedne magic or flexible formulaic magic and i want to teach it to someone? can i do it? especialy if they don't give an actual ability like parma magica does

So you read The Mysteries Revised Edition? Then you probably should already know that the things written there are secret factions within the Hermetic Order and nearly all things written are not integrated in the Hermetic Theory.
Its always the decision of the storyteller and or the group if any , non or all of the factions are in the game.
For your question about Virtues read 8ff of Mysteries Revised Edition but I needed to read 2 -3 times trough it to understand how it works.

The standard Hermetic virtues can be taught using the teaching ability. Teaching a Hermtic virtue to another starts at needing to generate a Source Quality of 15 or 21 for minor or major virtues, respectively. Each hermetic virtue known by the student increases the source quality requirement by +3 or +9 for minor or major virtues, respectively. Including a flaw while teaching reduces the source quality needed at the same levels as adding a virtue, the teacher can only include flaws he possesses. These rules were added in Apprentices.

Mysteries have a different mechanism for passing on virtues.

if i understand things correctly even hermetic virtues are not totally supposed to be completely integrated in hermetic theory? for instance not every magus has"flexible formulaic magic" in which case integrating a virtue would a breakthrough,right?

That is correct.



  1. Elijah raised the son of the Zarephath widow from the dead (1 Kings 17:17-22).
  2. Elisha raised the son of the Shunammite woman from the dead (2 Kings 4:32-35).
  3. A man was raised from the dead when his body touched Elisha’s bones (2 Kings 13:20, 21).
  4. Many saints rose from the dead at the resurrection of Jesus (Matt. 27:50-53).
  5. Jesus raised the son of the widow of Nain from the dead (Luke 7:11-15).
  6. Jesus raised the daughter of Jairus from the dead (Luke 8:41, 42, 49-55).
  7. Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead (John 11:1-44).
  8. Peter raised Dorcas from the dead (Acts 9:36-41).
  9. Eutychus was raised from the dead by Paul (Acts 20:9, 10).

Also, Revelations prophesises mass-resurrection on Judgement Day.

Just a clarification regarding Breakthrough and Integration:
There is usually two stages: first, the discovery itself, which grant the researcher usually a new virtue (possibly associated to a a new skill) enabling the use of said discovery. At this stage, he can teach other magus his discovery, but it will follow the rules of initiation.
The second stage is the integration and is as difficult as the research itself. Once it is completed, the magus can teach and share his discovery through Tractatus and Summae. Any mage can apply his discovery once he had access to the magus writing or teaching. It usually takes only a season.

Any original research needs a discovery stage, The integration step is not mandatory, put it is the stage which will insure quick spreading of the discovery.

Then why is not Flexible magic or Deft with each Form not integrated ?
Well, two reasons: a background one and a mechanical one.
The background one is that most magus are quite self-centered and won't see the benefit of integrating a virtue which will not benefit them (to integrate a virtue you must have it yourself) and allows other magi to have the same advantage, without much costs. In a nutshell: egoism.
The mechanical one: to allow broad variety of mages, there is a need to have an extensive virtue list, especially pertaining to magic itself. Spells can be learned, virtues are much more challenging to acquire.

and what happens if im not trying to "discover" anything by myself but i am trying to integrate another traditions magic.
i assume that just as hermetic arts or virtues can't be learned by anyone whose arts are not opened in the hermetic way the same should apply here. i could never learn a virtue created in "x" magical tradition's framework just by pointing a sharp stick at one of it's members and just holding him i the basement until he starts talking :laughing:

if so what's the benefit of searching other traditions that break the limits vs just doing it on original research.

parma magica seems to break that logic however. it reqires no virtue no initiation, and for that matter anyone outside the order may learn it. is this an inherent"perk" of hermetic breakthroughs.

also if i understand what you say that means that in order to allow rego vim to do parma magica only the integration progess is needed?

Well, almost yes in the first case and regarding your second point see below.

The main difference between Original research and integration of another tradition is that in the first case, you need to "discover" something that you will use to make your research(House of Hermes: True Lineage, p27-29). So basically, you need to do experimentation in your lab (typically on inventing a spell, but enchanting item works as well) on a topic related to what you are trying to discover.

If your experimentation roll lead to a Discovery result, you are onto something (called Insight). So you need to stabilise your research the following season, by repeating an experimentation and if you invent a spell without negative results, you succeed in stabilizing your research earning a few points towards your Breakthrough.
If you have a source of Insight, you don't need to experiement to generate Insight, you use your source of Insight and make a test each season (Int+MT vs 18). If you succeed, you can proceed to inventing a spell integrating some element of your Insight, thus earning a few points towards the completion of your Breakthrough.

So statistically, it is much easier and definetily less risky to work with a source of Insight instead of trying to generate one through Original research. Experimentation is not a safe path for power. There are usually more risks than worthwile benefits.

So to come to your first point, yes, you can force or more likely try to convince a practitioneer from another tradition to share techniques and knowledge. It will generate insight that you can use to advance your research (refer to Hedge Magic for more details). Coercing it might not be the best option as he might try to feed you useless or even dangerous information, hoping that when you try to apply it, you will suffer some terrible consequences. A teacher from another tradition needs to have score in Magic Theory (Hedge Magic), and several traditions don't have that.

Keep in mind that the spells or items invented during the research, although they are useful to help you progress cannot yet incorporate benefit from what will be your discovery, yet they might break some Hermetic limit. They are still flaws in your theory, so it still must follow hermetic guidelines, including the various limits.

Exemple: You are trying to integrate Deft (Ignem). You succesfully invent an Ignem spell following an Insight. You still need gesture and words to cast it. But maybe they are subdued, or they don't match hermetic gesture but something else, making it more difficult for observer to identify which spell you are casting.

Also keep in mind that Integration of a different tradition and integration in Hermetic theory are two different steps.
Integration of a tradition means that you made the discovery, you can teach it to other magus, usually through an initiation. Once it is integrated, any body with magic Theory can use it, without specific training.