Some Vim doubts

First i have a doubt about Intellego Vim working on Charged items, I can figure that a level 10 should work to any charged item present on the Range, but, should it work maybe the other since the effect is not used? And since the Vis isn't used maybe the Level 10 Base is ok, but... If does the spell only count the charges on the object?
How it should work?
Like this...

...or like this:

And more tahta a Vim base, it is a Vim spell. Can the Watching Ward take Rituals in them? Thanks.

On a related note: it's not clear to me how much one should be able to discover about an enchanted item (Hermetic, say) in general using Intellego Vim spells. Clearly there should be a limit, given the mechanics for investigating enchantments in the laboratory. So:

  • Should you be able to find out what effect(s) are in the item? Surely not - otherwise this totally obviates the need for the investigation mechanics.
  • Should you be able to find out how many pawns of vis were used in the item? I would say yes - this is analogous to the magnitude of a spell.
  • Should you be able to find out what Forms of vis were used? or somewhat equivalently, what Forms of effects are in the item? Now I'm not so sure....

The Arts implied should be possible, but again you couldn,t know anything more, since 1º the real effect/enchantment, and 2º the general effect could be "shadowed" with CrVi spells of the Core Rules to give false information and or erase the pressence of magic.
I am sure that any spell of mine would fail against the second question.

Spells that hide magic certainly complicate the process - as if it weren't tough enough to start. :frowning:

The way the rules read (p 158), it (almost?) sounds like you first need to take either/both +2 mag's for Te/Fo and/or +1 to ID non/Hermetic effects before allowing "Further increases in Level will yield further information" - but I'm not 100% sure that was the intent of that phrasing. (I don't interpret it that way - ysmv.)

Either way, the "+3 to sense the details..." I think should be clearly specified as to the "further information" gained. "+2 for Te/Fo, +1 for # of charges", or whatever info is desired. (Unless you want InVi to be random and up to the SG - that's a valid approach, but not one "encouraged" by the rules, I think.)

Not at all sure where you're getting "Base 2" for this. Effects are "based" on their magnitude - this would work on "magnitude 8" effects or larger - Level 40 and up.

So, as designed, without "further magnitudes for further information", this effect would only detect yes/no if an object touched (w/ a Level 40 effect or greater!) were a magical device, nothing more. (And see above re whether "+2 Te/Fo" is a pre-requisite for "further info".)

Don't believe so, no.

The main limit (as explained in the InVi guidelines) is that a spell will never tell one how to use an item; only Lab Investigation will do that. So, in theory, a mage could (with a enough massive InVi effects) determine exactly what's in an item - and make a note of that and file it in their library, because the item is still useless except as a paperweight until a (successful!) lab investigation tells them how to use it.

o Should you be able to find out what effect(s) are in the item? Surely not - otherwise this totally obviates the need for the investigation mechanics.

I tend to disagree - it would certainly be tough to determine the exact effect(s), but possible with a large and specific enough InVi spell.

As mentioned above and below, Lab Investigation gives reveals 100% (which is possible with spells, but a serious challenge!), and (far more importantly) how to use the item.

o Should you be able to find out how many pawns of vis were used in the item? I would say yes - this is analogous to the magnitude of a spell.

Really? Again, I'd disagree - for a greater invested device, the vis used for the "opening" may or may not be fully used, and as yet has no "power" of its own. If you have simple wooden staff, opened to 8 pawns of vim vis but with no effects enchanted yet, is that then "the equivalent" of a magnitude 8 (level 40) effect? Regardless of size (or complete lack!) of effects instilled within it?

(I won't say it would be "bad" to rule that as such, but it would certainly change expectations re detecting greater devices, esp talismans!)

o Should you be able to find out what Forms of vis were used? or somewhat equivalently, what Forms of effects are in the item? Now I'm not so sure...

(Hrmmm... not sure why one would care once the vis has been cooked into the device, but, as a theoretical question...)

I would say - "Sure, why not?" It would be some of the "further information" specified in the effect, but any aspect of the design (short of triggering) should be decipherable w/ the right InVi effect.

As for the Tech's and Forms in the item, absolutely! That's RAW, p 158, col i, par ii, mid - "The addition of 2 magnitudes will give information about Technique and Form..."

What a mage usually ends up with is a spell that tells them something like this... (let's say when investigating a "wand of fireballs", charged PoF, because I'm not feeling creative atm)

Example of Big InVi Effect to examine items
InVi 30
ID's whether the item is Hermetic or not, Tech/Form, and fully describes the general effect(s) involved.
(Base 5, +1 non/Hermetic, +2 Te/Fo, +2 more info, +0 Taste)And the SG says... [i]"...The mage licks and sucks the device for a long time, focusing on the details of the magic (and hoping he's doing this in private...)

It's non-Hermetic, but he's not familiar w/ the style/school. The only Te/Fo spotted are Creo Ignem*, and it seems only 1 effect, that involves "fire" rather than "light". It creates fire of +15 damage."[/i]No information is gained about "charges" or "uses/day", or re R/D/T, b/c that wasn't how the "further information" was defined in the spell description. A generous SG might easily give more - +2 magnitudes is usually fairly powerful, but otoh the InVi don't seem particularly generous.

(* This might be a critical warning to take certain precautions if the item is then investigated in the lab!)

What a spell like this is good for is (if phrased appropriately!) to determine whether or not a device is worth investigating in the first place! Since the above only had 1 effect in it, it's a good bet it's a "lesser item", tho' it could be a partially-filled greater enchantment (unknown if that distinction wasn't specified in the description?)

The problem is that, for anything much more than Te/Fo, you're getting into magnitude 6+ effects, and that's with a target sense of "Taste". To perform a full analysis requires a dedicated InVi mage w/ multiple effects to fully analyze every last detail of an item.* To do anything half-detailed at range is truly the realm of archmagi.

(* Including, if they're wise, a hearing- and/or sight-based effect to first spot Watching Ward and other traps before diving in w/ the real "hands on" analysis!)

Cuchulainshound i get you the half... but i see you too conservative. Too much.
I understand of the basic that a magniutd it's needed to be aware if something (a spell or a object) is hermetic or not, and that +2 add you the Te/Fo of the thing analyzed, and +3 other details depending of the design of the spell.
A question, if you need a spell to works on a objective of great Size you increase the spell level with a magnitud by 10 times the basic Size affected, one -by-one: a +1 = x10, a +2 = x100 and so on, but the spell works on any littler that the maximum of size... The information or exactitude of Intellego Vim works in that way too. A +1 Hermetic or not, a +2 the Te/Fo and +3 other details, not say any to learn to makes one equal or to make it works, but say you all the three things, succesively.
I remake the question, How hard is make a spell to see how many charges has a Charged Object? It's only that. Charged objects are not listed in the 1 pawn of vis used = magnitud of the object and residual magic equivally. By that i am making all this. And i doubt htat the only way to see it would be getting in the Lab...
And other question about base 2 to count things, i get that to al objects, but whay include it in the Vim guidelines if it's impossible sense anything? I said that the system that "if you can see it, you can affect it with magic", i mean, that should be possible use the Base level 2 to count enchantments one you first can count them.
And riding on the Watching Ward didn't say anything against the Ritual, but the minor Tetherd Magic, taht works in the same way that a Watching ward with any spell, or it make possible that the objective counts like the caster; and this doesn't work on Ritual spells, specifically; and ther are one pint, the Matery Ability Tethered Spell that works in taht way, its possible that Mercere mercurians and anothers control the expansion of taht abilities, but just like other capable secrets, that make unusefull one of the longer and more importants Rituals on the Order, then to me, the Watching wards have a advantage, the capability to ward ritual spells.

I am conservative - or tend to be. No argument, no apologies - that's my spin on the game. :confused:

(Which is why I try to remember to qualify my statements as much as possible.) :wink:

I disagree - the rules would have said "also", and they clearly don't.

I see it as an option - +1 gives you X, +2 gives you Y+Z - but it requires +3 to give you X+Y+Z. (I see an implied "+1 mag to get either Tech or Form - is that less conservative?) But if you don't want to play it that way, np by me.

You would need only +1 magnitude for that specific piece of information. (It would also tell you that an item/effect is, in fact, "charged" - if 0 charges, the effect would not exist any more.)

Nope, it sure doesn't.

But Rituals tend to be more limited in almost every part of the rules - my (conservative) reading sees this as a understood omission, not unspoken permission.

Sorry by my language. I am too much aggresive, part of "Gipsy/Manchega" blood.
But, i think that a Charged items without any charge, should fall on the Base of 10.
And true, the Ritual are a few differents, but are more powerfull with a cost: the exceptions on the rules that we know and the reqermiments of fatigue, time and Vis on the spellcasting moment, and to me with that they are "paid" to be used on others same just like others spells.
I'm gonna tell you the magi Concept after the Watching/Ritual/Tether/Formulaic Magic. It's nor the first, but...
He is a Titalan Magi, a Magi with a hard Hermetic Flaw, Short-Ranged magic; then he dsicovered the watching Ward and he has thougt use it to delve to distance Ritual Effects, and to ward beneficial spells to their helpers (He is a Tytalan magi with Meddler and Soft hearted), his magic styles works well with Creo and Rego, and his advantage permit him save Vis to study: Imbued by Spirit of Vim and Mercurian Magic.
What do you think?

I would say Base 5 to get any info from a charged item (0 magnitude equivalent).

Note that HoH-TL has some more information on InVi magic in the Guernicus section. Notable, the spells Impression of the Faded Sigil and Sight of the Sigil both use +3 magnitude for detail, and both tell whether the effect is Hermetic, the Technique and Form AND additional details (rough details of the effect and the casting sigil of the magus responsible).

The way I read it, that's not a case of any +3 magnitude giving exactly those details, but of these specific spells being designed to give these details and requiring the +3 magnitude (that is, first magnitude gives whether it's hermetic, second gives Te/Fo, and the third additional details). So I would use that same +3 magnitude to get the number of charges, but that information replaces the one on rough effect and sigil.

Thanks, i forgot that book, later i'll check.
That spell is reasonably, i mean, it works like a great help to see a known Charged Item (EJ: Magi: Tertius My Grog, let me see if you have transformed on donkey to the Baron with the amulet that i've enchanted the last Summer)

Good catch!

Hrmmm - but not so fast! The Guidelines at first seem to have been expanded a bit (or more!) in HoH:TL - for a full +3, it appears possible get all that and a bag of chips!...

+3 magnitudes gives rough details of the effect & sigil of caster. This level also enables the Quaesitor to tell if a Hermetic effect was created by spell or invested device. Quaesitors with extensive experience of a particular sort of non-Hermetic power can also identify that.... (HoH:TL p 74) (emphasis added)The use of the word "Quaesitor" kept catching my eye - why not "caster" or "mage"? So I read back a bit, and found this...

Quaesitorial Magic
... Quaesitors have researched spells... with the support of Bonisagus magi. Magi granted the title Quaesitor are taught the fruits of this research...

... These texts are... the magical secrets of House Guernicus... it is a low crime for a non-Quaesitor to read them (see Sanctum Law insert)... (TL p 70) (emphasis added)
So - for better or worse, this seems to reinforce the conservative interpretation as "canon", and the "+3 = all that and more" interpretation as a secret breakthrough of House G alone.

If that's all you want, then just use +1 magnitude to focus on that one aspect, and ignore the rest.

Accounting Charges
InVi 15
R: Personal, D: Momentary, O:Touch
Discover the number or charges of any Charged Item.
(Base 5, +1 Touch, +1 for # charges)

That's all you need*. If the caster is willing to go with "taste" range, then Lvl 10.

(* Unless you read the InVi Guidelines as first requiring either Te/Fo or +/- Hermetic ID before gaining "further information - ysmv)

What obession to lick Items... The Touch works to me.
Thanks by the opinions, he.