Specialists vs. Grogs - why have specialists?

Games Discussion Ars Magica
#6

Hi,

AM rules do not always play well together.

If you want to encourage players to create lots of grog-level characters, I suggest simply ignoring the covenant creation rules.

If you feel more comfortable making the PCs pay something for the right to create tens, maybe hundreds of grogs and specialists, might I suggest a new Minor Boon: Well-Peopled, or whatever you want to call it? "Your covenant has no trouble attracting and paying for minions. You can have as many of these as you can stat, up to ten (or some higher number) and their families per magus in the covenant. If you lose one, you can stat up another."

Anyway,

Ken

#7

In a nutshell: feel free to design all the grogs you want and use them! You are not breaking anything.

The fifth edition of Ars magica has a lot of little mechanical nudges here and there to "reward" a troupe that decides to breath life into a saga by putting "design effort" into it. The fact that you don't have to pay points for specialists you design as grogs is one such nudge. Keep in mind that since you are relatively free to choose the amount of Build points, and there are Boons such as Hidden Reources, it's a "reward" that feels bigger than it is -- which is excellent game design!

If you use the Covenants supplement, you'll have to face resource limits: upkeep of your grogs costs silver, particularly if you want to keep them happy and loyal, so there's a practical limit on how many you can have. Though it's not a very stringent limit, and as little as 1 minor Boon really gives you all you might want.

#8

the other problem is that they keep trying to design universal rules that apply equally to unequal circumstance.
silver income should be less expensive in the roman tribunal, and vis should cost more dearly in Normandy, but you have the same table everywhere. The lack of rules integration is one of my main pet peeves regarding Ars Magica.
Honestly, it feels like there should be rules for stating a tribunal before you stat the covenant- vis rich or poor, economically well off or poor, wracked by conflict or a unified government, etc...

#9

I think it might be fun to make a little chart for that - what 'vis poor' or 'silver rich' mean.

#10

I understand grog in this context to mean a warrior as they are specified as such on page 71.

There is about one grog (fighter) per magus, and there are about two other covenfolk, such as servants and craftsmen, per magus. The available craftsmen include a blacksmith, carpenter, and maybe a bookbinder, but more exotic specialists are not present.

As I read it a covenant of 4 magi will have:

  • 4 fighters (i.e. grogs)
  • 8 other covenfolk presumably a blacksmith, a carpenter and a bookbinder and 5 additional unskilled laborers to perform manual labor.

The rule about buying specialists with build points kick in if you want any additional specialists/skilled laborers apart from the three mentioned above. I also assume that those 3 laborers (blacksmith, carpenter and bookbinder) will be necessary for the covenant to run smoothly, meaning that they do not have additional seasons to perform favors for the magi above and beyond what is mentioned in the core rulebook. The blacksmith and carpenter create and maintain regular stuff, tools, wooden buildings etc. and the bookbinder ensures that the magi can write books as specified in chapter 10, notably a single bookbinder is assumed to be occupied to full capacity maintaining whatever books the magi create and is not available to to make extra copies of books for sale or trade. Of course each of these craftsmen can be persuaded to use their free seasons if provided with a proper incentive.

From page 72 of the core rulebook:
Specialists are non-magus NPC members of the covenant with useful skills. They are defined
only by the abilities they use to serve the covenant, rather than by a full character sheet,
and can include guards as well as teachers and craftsmen. Characters created as grogs or companions need not be paid for with Build Points.

According to the above I would count as a a specialist that needs to be bought with build points any character that allows that magi to do or gain things that they would normally need to resolve a story to get. For me (and my group) this includes but is not limited to: shield-grogs, figthers skilled in fighting together, jewlers/gemcutters, weapon/armor smiths, gold smiths, glass-blowers, masons (in case you want to construct/maintain stone buildings), extra bookbinders/librarians if you want to engage in copying and selling of books, teachers in case you want access to a source of quick experience in various mundane abilities.
As for the bit about Characters created as grogs or companions need not be paid for with Build Points I assume that it means that if your companion does something that is covered by what a specialist could also do then thats fine and dandy. Same goes if the group collectively adds extra grogs, e.g. each magus is gifted a grogs by their mater/pater upon passing their gauntlet or there is some other means that adds extra grogs then those grogs should not be paid for according to this rule.

The number of unskilled laborers here is notably way low compared to what you need according to Covenants but the numbers given on page 71 of the core book are also assumed to be the bare minimum necessary for a covenant to function and in my view should represent a level of staffing where the magi are forced to engage in a lot of activities that a summer or autumn covenant would have mundane staff to do.

By way of comparison I offer up the other things that covenants are assumed to start out with a single stone building with enough room to accommodate the magi and covenfolk, a level 3 magic aura, no magical resources and enough mundane income to ensure that the magi do not need to worry about day-to-day upkeep. (Paraphrased from the same paragraph on page 71 that contains the information on the number of covenfolk). To me this reads like a list of "This is the least you need to be considered a covenant", meaning that the base amount of anything should be considered undesirably low by any magus and causing a system where everything will have to be bought up with build points to get to a level that is more typical of most covenants. It makes sense too if things are this way because it is a lot easier to give the bare minimum in each category and have the players/storyguide buy up whatever they want to have more of in their covenant as opposed to starting out at say, a reasonable middle ground and then having the option to buy-down things you dont want to have much of.

#11

That sounds like a really good community project. I will see if I can get around starting a thread on that topic later today/tomorrow.

EDIT: I made the thread now - link: How does the tribunal you are located in affect covenant creation?

#12

I do not really see the problem. If the players design a character, they will normally want to play it, whether they RP in stories or play the long-term advancement, or both. Few players want to develop a single skill to do tedious and monotonous work for the covenant. There are other things which makes PCs fun to play.

If the players make up umteen grogs to serve as specialists with no desire to play them, just to save BP, then they are just abusing the rules. It is your choice whether you want to play such a game.

There are worse problems with the covenant creation system.

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#13

Thanks to everyone for your replies. They have been very helpful, not least because they mostly show that I'm not the only person who finds the way the rules on pgs 71-72 are worded unclear.

Few players want to develop a single skill to do tedious and monotonous work for the covenant. There are other things which makes PCs fun to play.

Loke, you'd be surprised by my players, then. In my past campaign of Ars Magica, and in this one, its often the lowliest grog that seems to capture people's attention. All of them end up having a fun personality to role-play and some interesting side-line story about them.

According to the above I would count as a a specialist that needs to be bought with build points any character that allows that magi to do or gain things that they would normally need to resolve a story to get. For me (and my group) this includes but is not limited to: shield-grogs, figthers skilled in fighting together, jewlers/gemcutters, weapon/armor smiths, gold smiths, glass-blowers, masons (in case you want to construct/maintain stone buildings), extra bookbinders/librarians if you want to engage in copying and selling of books, teachers in case you want access to a source of quick experience in various mundane abilities.

Euphemism, that's an interesting twist. I wish that were spelled out more clearly, because that makes sense for the most part, I just don't think that is the actual rule as written. Its a good idea, though.

For our group, after reading all these replies and thinking about it more, we are going to treat the rule on page 71 as a "budget" for grogs. Since I have 7 (!!) players that means at least 7 fighter grogs and at least 14 non-fighters before anyone has to even think about spending build points. Which means build points on specialists are probably just not going to be necessary. (as an extra twist, one of the companions took the "Mercenary Captain" virtue, so that means an extra 5-10 fighter-types can be created).

Also, I find the specification that specialists are NPCs a bit weird. I think that supports Euphemism's idea that these specialists are really meant to be a kind of covenant furniture, not actual characters of any importance, and strictly to fulfill a need that can't otherwise be met. Although again I wish it were spelled out more clearly and not immediately undercut by that last sentence about grogs/companions. I admit I have zero interest in furniture NPCs; that seems thin and uninspiring.

I've told the players that those folks from their budget might not be the ONLY people at the covenant; there may be NPCs. I acknowledged that if I did put an NPC at the covenant given the way we have interpreted the rules that pretty much is a blinking neon sign over that NPC that says "IMPORTANT CHARACTER", but I'm ok with that.

#14

If you use the Covenants supplement, you'll have to face resource limits: upkeep of your grogs costs silver, particularly if you want to keep them happy and loyal, so there's a practical limit on how many you can have. Though it's not a very stringent limit, and as little as 1 minor Boon really gives you all you might want.

Ezzelino, that is an important point. We actually haven't decided yet whether we will be tracking all that in the detail shows in the Covenants supplement, but in general more people = more troubles, probably on all kinds of levels not just monetary.

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#15

I happy that you find the advice useful.

I personally think that "unintersting" NPC's can still be valuable to have in a covenant. Take the example of the bookbinder. A covenant basically needs a bookbinding to function as they otherwise have no means to write books. but perhaps no-one wants to play a bookbinder. In that case the bookbinder is simply an NPC because no-one plays them and they are there because they are a necessity for the covenant to function. Similarly a covenant might want any of the other specialists I mentioned above as well as many others I didnt mention. Unintersting in Ars Magica simply means that the character is not involved in stories.

As per the rules in Covenants, any covenant needs a somewhat large pool of unskilled laborers for example and they really must be there even if you dont have the capacity to run stories about 20-50 unskilled workers who all just haul, launder, and do whatever other unskilled jobs.

#16

I'm going to slightly drift off topic.
While I certainly can agree with the idea that the background NPCs are valuable but usually not fun to play, I feel a bit driven to point out the game-centric opinion that a bookbinder is necessary for a covenant to function. It's an incredibly convenient specialist to have. The best way to get xp is to have a number of book writers in the covenant, and you'll want the book-trio of crafters to make it easier. Player characters go for that sort of thing, but it's very, very possible to have a covenant with no characters with good communication, no characters with Good teacher, and nobody interested in writing books. (But how will you function without easy XP sources?) A covenant focused on hunting monsters can accumulate vis, which can be turned into vis. A political covenant can pull favors and services for copies of books. The Bonisagus living in the random wild faerie forests for his studies can scribe his book and hire outside professionals for binding his book, or send it to his House at Durenmar.
Let's not fall into the trap of thinking all the covenants should be designed with book-writing in mind.

#17

The bookbinder was just meant as an example and you could replace it with carpenter or blacksmith just as well, or even better. Even if a covenant does not want books it surely will want to have it buildings maintained or its residents supplied with everyday tools.

I did not mean to suggest that all covenants should be designed with book writing in mind and have fallen into no such trap. The way the bookbinder figures on a list of "free specialists" along with a carpenter and blacksmith makes me think that those 3 specialists are considered the bare minimum any normal (i.e. not specialized in any way) covenant can make do with. I take it that having a bookbinder is necessary just to maintain a library. Not to specialize in book writing. So that if you dont have a bookbinder at your covenant either the books in the library will degrade over time or a magus will have to spend seasons every year to maintain them. This holds true even if your covenant does not specialize in writing books but buys them and keeps them around for utility. I find it hard to imagine a hermetic covenant entirely without a library, or at least such a covenant would be highly specialized in not having a library*. I think a book-writing centric covenant would have many more book-specialists than just a bookbinder just as a manufacturing centric covenant can not make do with just a blacksmith and a carpenter.

*not having a library is a potentially interesting idea for a covenant. Maybe they have a large collection of realia instead? or keep a staff of teachers taking care to ensure that the teachers pass on their skills? Maybe they take the Criamon way and keep a bunch of spirits around to teach their members? Lots of good ideas but notably all of them involve a covenant that is highly specialized around replacing the library with a different library-equivalent feature and is non-standard.

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#18

One thing I've seen / done in a couple campaigns recently is have each player, on top of their Magus and Companion, design one grog-level character which often is their shield grog but some players might choose a lab assistant or a forge companion or whatnot, then for the two other "free" grogs they merely think of two concepts that might be linked to their magus or their companion and other players actually design those characters. Then we have usually fleshed out any specialists we bought with build points, divvying up the labor as equally as possible. We often don't design every specialist as a full character but, for instance, in one game we bought a guide/teacher for the local Area Lore with BPs and he's been played a few times, seems a little more of a waste for our Scribe, Illustrator, and Binder/Librarian but giving them personalities isn't terrible. Though it was kind of important for the Scribe since our Magi come from the Roman and Theban Tribunals, requiring both Latin and Greek, and there are lots of language issues in Malta at that time having both Arabic and the Sicilian dialect as necessary local languages.

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#19

What I realised when we started a new saga a few weeks ago is that the BP is not the constraint on specialists. Silver income is.

A blacksmith with score 5 is just break-even if you use standard figures for a Summer covenant [Cov]. The specialists you need to grow your library cost you £3/year.

A typical income source is quickly exhausted. Obviously, this means that one needs to take the wealthy boon (or secondary income twice), but if you look at the descriptions, you are then growing to a major presence in the community, which logically should lead to more political challenges than we have time to narrate.

My problem, obviously, is nothing more than lack of experience and naïve reliance on the basic rules. If we had patiently made out all the details before we started playing, we
would have spotted the flaws, and revised before we committed to badly designed details in the narrative.

But when I come to think about it, I don't think a bookbinder is necessary for every covenant. Book maintenance, I think, should is covered by the £1 per literate resident. Worn-out books can be taken to an independent craftsman to be rebound for cash payment. If a book-binder is employed anyway, he should be counted for cost saving. Comments?

#20

I think a bookbinder is absolutely necessary. What happens when the binder talks about the demonic books he fixed during confession? What about Resonant books that can’t be removed from the aura?much better to hire a specialist who lives at the covenant.

But, yes, silver is most definitely the constraint and most spring covenants are going to have many stories about gaining or improving income sources. Pretty sure that’s by design.

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#21

For me spring covenants is about setting up. Not necessarily money scarcity. If you have Vis but you require silver you sell it. Nobody is stupid enough to be Vis rich but live in squalor. Specially magi. Magi tend to be extremely rich people. They do not want to be living as peasants. For a while they are likely to sell some Vis (not much, mind) for dozens of pounds of silver. And this will be enough to set up the covenant. Or it should be. Being miserable because you cannot pay wages.is a story hook (and there is a hook for that) butnit is not a given at all in spring covenants. Or it should not be. Setting up and being just poor are 2 different things and then stories are different. Getting a source of labor is one thing. Not being able to get a source of labor because rats give you alms is another thing.

Ok I will shut up now.

Xavi

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#22

It is called a story hook. :slight_smile:

I admit, I disregarded those.

Seriously, I am pretty sure I have seen the use of external bookbinders and the like in canon books, again, it might not be 5ed.

This is where more elaborate rules in [Cov] would be useful. Unless you take a lot of time to design your covenant in view of story potential rather than rules, you easily end up with a covenant with too many story hooks. The boon/hook system is good, but if you design a mature covenant you will have an automatic poverty hook at no cost, which runs counter to the idea of using boons and hooks to record what kind of stories you want to play.

Yes. Perfectly playable and balanced covenants can be designed within the rules, but how many sagas do you need to wreck before you learn how?

#23

I think the idea is that, by default, you do not have to deal with that, in any season.

That's why the default is that you have a "typical" source of income, which is quite enough to cover your basic grog and specialist needs without going overboard, and have the magi live well if not lavishly. Not having that is a Hook.

You shouldn't (from my experience) need the Wealth Boons unless you really want to go overboard with your specialists ("where's the assistant perfumier?"), including possibly your military forces, or with your lifestyle ("really, how can one live without just a few hundred -- mind me, not even a thousand! -- jewel encrusted silk robes?").

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#24

Moving from Spring to summer means every person at the covenant costs about twice as much, unless you want to forgo the extra health benefit added under "typical summer or autumn covenants." Creating a reasonable fighting force also costs a significant amount of money, as do improved labs, larger library with the necessary staff, improving and manning the covenant buildings and defenses, etc., ignoring for a moment getting that gem or well crafted sword for your talisman (or whatever). In essence, sure 100 MPs is fine for a stagnant covenant but doesn't give much leeway if you have a bad year or two and most forms of improvement cost money either in added maintenance or up front or both. Generally, in my view, a spring covenant's stories should largely be about improving the covenant to make what is likely a tight income into providing the sort of income that can support the magi in the manner in which they may be accustomed. Sure, maybe a group of Criamon mystics is fine to live ascetically in a cave but most magi don't really fit that sort of concept, least as seems to be written in canon.

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#25

And, of course, it is perfectly fine to hand-wave a bunch of this if that's the campaign you want but the covenant itself as a "group character" is one of the pieces that interests me about Ars Magica.