Spell Duartion Ring

After reading a bit in this forum I started to (re) think the definition of spell duration ring:

As a magical ward to protect the magus and possibly others it seems to be clear that the spell ends as soon as the target moves out of the ring.

  1. What will happen if someone creates a ward duration ring target circle and uses an empty circle? After the spell is cast the magus and his fellows step into the ring. Are they protected by the ward? May they leave and return without ending the spell?

  2. Assuming a “Ward against ... was cast while everyone who should be protected was inside the circle. Later one person of the protected group throws something out of the circle (something that was inside at the time the spell was cast). Then the spell should end? Correct?

  3. I found this spell:

    Ring of Candlelight, CrIg 5, Touch, Ring, Circle

It seems to me it should create an infinite light. According to the description of ring it might be possible.
But in this case it should be a Ritual needing vis and should be at least Level 20? Correct?

How to roule a spont CrXx spell with Touch, Ring, Circle?
If possible to cast, how long will it last?

Easy one first.
No. Creo spells that create something must have T: Individual (or T: Group). Ref: Targets and Creo, ArM5, p. 113, box.

Arguably, if light is directly created in this way, it cannot leave the circle (see your own logic and questions above).
Much better to create a flame with D: Ring, T: Individual, which sheds light as a side effect - thus not limited to the Ring.

No, because the thing it creates cannot sustain itself, and so cannot be created ritually.
Re-read the definition of D: Momentary, ArM5, p. 112, and remember that light without a source doesn't last for very long - so a "natural" (ritually created) version doesn't either.
Likewise for a flame that burns without fuel.

If it could meaningfully have been created via a ritual, that ritual would indeed have to be level 20 or higher.

No CrFo spells with T: Circle, remember?
And D: Ring (Or T: Circle) can certainly be used with spontaneous magic - that's how the flame mentioned above is most often cast, in my experience.

That was really helpful, Tellus. I've been often confused by ring and circle as well. What about setting a rego trap with a circle? Inspired by Constantine, could you make a ReCo Dangling Puppet Spell within a ring, so that whoever entered the circle would be suspended in the air, or does it have to have a target within the circle upon casting?

While most spells affects only those inside the Target at the time of casting even if they leave afterward, there are a few that apply their effects on those who enter the Target until the leave it. I think the consensus is you need at least T:Room for it, this allows to magic shrinking boxes. And ReMe40 The Shrouded Glen definitely does that with T:Boundary.

As for using T:Circle, there has been discussion on whether "at the time of casting" refers to "drawn" or "within" but the forum is firmly divided on that point.

Thank you.

You're not the only one. I've seen a lot of poorly designed Rings or Circles over the years, and embarassing number of those from myself. So I re-read the definitions, alot.

I'd say no. Not true traps. I've seen instances of "Lure the baddie into our almost-closed circle, then get out of there as we close it!", but since T: CIrcle specifies that

... meaning that true traps don't really fly that well.
Wards are a bit of an edge case btw, as it's generally accepted (I believe?) that diabolists can create a Circular Ward Against Demons, and then summon their demons inside it.
I've seen some clever suggestions using either Supressing the Wizard's Handiwork or the Watching Ward (Both ReVi, ArM5, p. 162) or variants thereof, but for true traps, I generally recommend devices, usually charged devices.

You'll also not that Tugdual have some suggestions above, though he goes directly to using other Targets (Room and Boundary), which obviously aren't Circles and so operate by their own rules.

You could certainly create a trap with a similar effect, using CrAu with T:Ind instead of ReCo with T:Circle: create a whirlind that "picks up and holds up" everything entering the ring - like Pull of the Skybound Winds but with R:Touch, D:Ring, for the same final level of 30. Note that your target is the whirlwind, not the victim, so it still works even if you assume that Circle/Ring magics do not affect "new" targets after the magic is cast.

Clever, I like it!
So much I might have to steal it! :wink:

To make a trap, you can arguably use a non-ritual ReVi Watching Ward with a Ring duration. (Watching Ward is considered to be a ritual due to its potentially indeterminate duration - however, Ring duration gets around that) - and when the ring is broken, have the spell be cast.

I'm not sure that's necessarily the only reason Watching Ward is a ritual.

The fact that it is holding and then casting a spell at all puts it into ritual territory for me.

YSMV, of course - but I'm pretty sure it isn't safe to make a blanket assumption about what makes Watching Ward a ritual or not. Unless I've missed something in the spell description?

It's explicitly in the spell description.

"The ritual nature of this spell supports the potentially indefinite duration." (Watching Ward - 3rd paragraph, final sentence, pg. 162).

Technically, you could argue that this isn't an exclusive statement: that the ritual nature of the spell also supports OTHER (unspecified) aspects of the watching ward, as well. However, the general effect is listed in the General guidelines on 161.

"Create a conduit or container for spells with level less than the level +5 magnitudes of the Vim spell...a container will hold a spell for a specific length of time before releasing it."

That strongly suggests that you can create an effect with a specific length of time via a normal duration (momentary/conc/ring/diameter/sun/moon).

Note that the General description is also the description that is applied to Intangible Tunnel - which uses standard range/duration, and isn't a ritual. Thus, it seems reasonable to say that using that Description, with standard range/durations, won't require a ritual.

Note that such a spell will ONLY go off when the circle is broken or the time limit expires, rather than the (much more useful) version that has a bit of a simple if/then check built in. Personally, I find this to be a reasonable interpretation, as it allows simple "you crossed the line" traps to be made, but requires the ritual effect for more useful versions.

Pity I'm not currently playing an Auram mage.

I think the fundamental question is this- if you have a non-circle target with ring duration, does the target have to be within the circle? The duration ring states it lasts until the target moves outside the ring, nothing about what happens if it is cast with the target already outside.

Nothing will happen. Or you'll be eaten by a grue.

I've never yet found a troupe that assumes one can cast a D:Ring spell on a target outside the ring. The universal consensus seems to be that "until the target moves outside the ring" really means "for as long as the target remains within the ring". Obvious, strong reasons of game balance (and, I daresay, "aesthetics") support this interpretation.

What I've seen troupes disagree about is whether a target that straddles the ring is considered in (as in tennis matches) or out (as in parking fines).

To me it would seem intuitively that crossing the boundary breaks the ring duration, and it seems to be written with an assumption of circle as the target. However I could easily see an arcane connection target where the connection must remain inside the ring (as one example), but there are certainly many other ways this could be [strike]abused[/strike] used.