Spell for magically clean water source?

Games Discussion Ars Magica
#1

I've been trying to think of different ways to improve living conditions within our covenant and I saw this guideline in ArM5 p. 121

So I thought why not create a magically clean source of water, which to create the initial source would be something like:

Level 10
Creo Aquam (Terram) Ritual
R: Touch D: Momentary T: Individual

Creates a spring with a high rate of flow

But the water would also need to be cleaned on a regular basis for any tangible benefit to be gained. If the goal is to make the water source as pure as possible would that be another Creo Aquan ritual?

bear in mind, the vis cost shouldn't be a problem here as my character is a Holy Magi.

#2

Rituals have a minimum level of 20.

#3

Perhaps consider cleaning the water source instead of creating a new one each time? Create it once, then just ensure it is clean.

The Rise of Atlantis saga has a huge lake which is full of salt water, but now is supposed to be a fresh water lake (because it was raised from the bed of the ocean). My magus is working on a spell to cleanse the water. The magus has the Atlantean virtue from RoP:M, but I've drafted versions for normal hermetic magic and using the Atlantean targets too, because both are viable in different ways.
I think it is reasonable to say the spell could equally purify a water source as you're asking.

Using typical hermetic magic, it can be done with a lower level spell, if it is cast multiple times. I've used target part so it has flexibility:

Or with the Atlantean virtue,

I could drop the +mags for size down a level and cast it multiple times too, and add back +1 for T: Part; but its getting messy.

Hope that is of some use,
cheers IBT

#4

Really? Where is that written?

I was hoping you wouldn't bring up Perdo, not least of all because I was stupid enough to take "deficient technique" in character creation.

Also is Perdo Aquam really appropriate? The description of perdo in ArM5 p 78:

And I was thinking CrAq would be more reasonable being the description for Creo on p77 says:

So considering that Perdo can't make something a better example of itself and Creo can I thought CrAq would have been the way to go for this.

#5
  • Rituals are always level 20+ - see Ars Magica p.114, "Ritual spells are always at least level 20, even if the level calculation would make them lower."
  • Perdo can do this, depending on what the specific spell effect is... See PeAq guideline - Level 15: Destroy one property of a liquid (like alcohol’s ability to intoxicate or sea water’s saltiness).
  • I can see Creo making water purer too. Its good and normal in Ars that they are many ways to do the same thing. It wasn't the specific effect I wanted, but what you're after is slightly different.
#6

It seems salt is a common topic on those forums: see here and here.

If you wanna create (fresh) water, creating a source seems off because magic can create the material (water), but once. And when the water flows, the source is dry... unless you invest an item with unlimited uses and environnmental trigger (round for example), but then you are bound by the not-ritual effects rule... unless you invest it with the various means to put ritual effect in items... which will still be limited.

So in short, maybe finding a normal source of water and take the salt / other bad substances away (but sincerely, I thought that the medieval paradigme would prevent the concept of "bad water" unless in the form of crawling little demons of sickness swimming in the water... which your favorite ReVi ward against demons or the never waster PeVi Demon's eternal oblivion will take care of ?).

#7

Well perhaps that could be assumed, but just because a water isn't bad doesn't mean it couldn't be made better? If we think about how water is used beyond drinking: cleaning yourself, cleaning your food, cleaning your property and probably a bunch more I can't think of. If the objective here is to make all of that water as pure as possible then one might see a measurable benefit. It might be reasonable, considering the setting, to assume a fluoride like effect of the water where drinking the purified water provides an increase of dental hygene.

Basically I'm just brainstorming ideas that could result in improved living conditions as a result of magic and how it would be justified.

Speaking of purifying water, what would be viable options for a CrAq spell that purifies water? I don't think there are any specific guidelines for it.

Also partially related: What other options are available for improving living conditions, beyond the obvious example of a longevity ritual.

#8

Look up ArM5 p.121 Creo Aquam Guidelines again. So you can create springs and even geysers with CrAq-spells.
If such a spell is not a ritual, the water created disappears with spell expiration - but crawfs thinks of a ritual anyway.

Such springs or geysers created with a CrAq ritual yield natural, pure, clean water without the need to add complexity or requisites: actually simple, ideal water. And yes, such water improves living conditions at a covenant and might save it during a siege, if handled with the appropriate care which every sane medieval person will accord to a spring.

Cheers

#9

Add levels for "essential water"?

#10

You can create one spring of water, but which indidual of water is this? water is defined: it's a defined quantity.

If you create a quantity of water, then it's just water, spring or not will not change that. By essence, I'd though the OP would have wanted a spring which renew itself. I pity the SG who says "yes one individual of water is a small pond or a spring such as the one of the Nile", but if his troupe is fine, then whatever.

So if you go that way, just CrAq a size +25 individual of water. Should be enough to be lasting forever.

#11

A river or spring is considered individual according to the text on p. 121 of the core book. Thus I would assume that an individual of water does not have to be discrete in terms of the liquid, but rather by the vessel.

#12

The guidelines on p 121 ArM5 say "A base individual for aquam is a pool of water about five paces (fifteen feet) across, and two paces deep at the center"

#13

Which is about 1060 cubic feet, or just over 7,900 gallons / 30 cubic meters and just under 30,000 liters, unless I've dropped a digit somewhere.

#14

If you make Chamber of Spring Breezes into a D: Mom ritual, you have breathable air forever in your airtight lab.
Similarly, if you use a CrAq ritual to create a small spring there (in a pool of water about five paces (fifteen feet) across, and two paces deep at the center), you have drinkable water forever in your dry lab.

Cheers

#15

That's why I said: if your SG/troupe is okay with a little base 5 to create a water source which last forever, then your saga, your rules. But that's not near correct in relation to individual size.

Because if a base X can create a source which renew itself then why would any magus bother with creating water with base Y and add any magnitude to size? just do a source and use Rego to accelerate his flow. Less vis used, same result, lower spell levels.

#16

A (ArM5 p.113) base individual controls what you can create at once.

But some spell guidelines and spells create something over significant time, like water from a spring, or breathable air with Chamber of Spring Breezes. There it is the Duration of the spell, not a base individual, that controls the accrued effect over time.

Otherwise, distinguishing

just doesn't make sense.

Cheers

EDIT:

Accelerating some liquid doesn't increase its volume or weight. Not even at a spring.

#17

(away from books, so take with grain of salt removed from purified water)

I've had ideas along the lines of separate salt from water for sale, and generally separating impurities to make, say, really good glassmaking sand. Good if you happen to live on an island with sandy beaches in the middle of the Mediterranean.

Now if you want a spring... Isn't the 'create spring' effect a carryover from previous editions? Sorta based on 'Moses strikes the rock and summons a natural spring from the ground', and the spring was as self-sustaining as a natural spring after that, which in this edition would be more complicated. Depending how you interpret it: if it is just water coming up from the ground as if a spring, then the total water you get should be about one individual of water. If it really is a natural spring, just 'summoned' with Creo, then after some time (days, seasons, depends on game?) it can do things like dry up, become contaminated, suck water out from surrounding area, etc etc. For a fake spring, also consider Rego to teleport the water from a river - just have it come out like a spring or a well to keep locals from getting superstitious. For a decorative fountain or to cleanse 'foul airs' or anything where the water doesn't need to be permanent, perhaps a Muto effect to turn air to water

Once you have the water, various ways to purify it. I would rule that Perdo/Muto/Rego can destroy/turn into bubble/pull aside into a collection chamber, one impurity. A In/Re Te(Aq) spell, "Maxwell's Daemon", that makes a filter that lets water through, while blocking salt. So one spell can remove salt, but won't do anything about the algae, mud, or jellyfish poison. Creo would fix everything, 'turn foul water into sweet water' with one spell. Hmm. Doesn't totally salt-free water (nowadays known as distilled or de-ionized) taste funny unless you add a teeny bit of salt back in? That would give the Creo version another edge - good water not ill-tasting but salt free water

For actually implementing the purification, you have two options. A, purify the whole body of water. See other people's posts. B, do a magical modern-day-pool filter. Route the water through a magic box or magic rain barrel enchanted with a purification spell. If you have a salt lake, routing through the filter and back into the lake will eventually desalinate the whole thing. Or just filter the stuff as it leaves the lake to go into your plumbing system.

Random weirder idea, going back to Athena, Neptune, and the olive tree. Could you use Herbam to make a tree that desalinates water as part of its normal life? Call it an 'olive tree of virtue'.

#18

Springs regularly run into problems like going dry and getting contaminated. If the covenant regularly took water from only the created spring in their fort without actually taking note of the local water table (or Mythic equivalent), then the spring is probably not even going to last a year. Rego to teleport water from a good source of water in a remote location would be a great tool, though you may want to find ways to hide and monitor it in case of tampering. If you did a duration-Creo that self-recast itself, you still have to worry a bit about the fact the water is magically created/sustained. Going to a friendly covenant and having your magic spring unable to penetrate their Aegis is going to really suck very quickly. Actually, I'm not sure how that would work: if I created a magical stick and carried it into a foreign Aegis of the Hearth, would it get stuck outside, or disappear, or would that work, since I didn't 'cast a spell into the Aegis'?

I would think, if the water was originally fresh water (a Creo spring), then a Creo spell to make it more pure would work, but run into the duration problem? If it was essentially sea water, Creo couldn't make it more pure and drinkable. Perdo could make sea water more potable, but Rego is the best catch-all. Maybe add a few requisites and magnitudes (Animal, Terram, Herbam) to get rid of unwanted algae, salt impurities, and dead beetles. Or you pour it through a cistern with a sieve on it that has a Rego that only stops the pure water, leaving a portion of pure water floating above a cespool of filthy water that can be washed or dumped away.
Or... am I off base here?

For actually implementing the purification, you have two options. A, purify the whole body of water. See other people's posts. B, do a magical modern-day-pool filter. Route the water through a magic box or magic rain barrel enchanted with a purification spell. If you have a salt lake, routing through the filter and back into the lake will eventually desalinate the whole thing. Or just filter the stuff as it leaves the lake to go into your plumbing system.
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