Spell Mastery and Ritual Spells

Games Discussion Ars Magica
61

But the first sentence does not say that, not just that, anyway.

Then later in the same section

The exceptions and qualifications made are the real issue. Again, you're not likely to convince me that Master 1 mitigates all botch dice, allows the Ritual to be cast in a relaxed manner. However, you should make your case for making it a HR in the Bibracte saga, not here.

As I have said, I believe my understanding is RAW, certainly closer to RAW than Mastery Ability score of 1 mitigating all botch dice, because it's going to be hard for a magus/player to not argue that they're doing it relaxed. That doesn't mean I don't think RAW is incorrect or imposes overly onerous penalties. I just think the alternative goes to far in the other direction. It's a situation of either you have # of pawns of vis=botch dice, or no botch dice. There's very little middle ground.

It also cheapens the value of a strong Golden Cord, Mercurian Magic, Cautious Sorcerer and to a less extent Mastered Spells and Flawless Magic.

62

Here is where I disagree:

You walk into town and your formulaic spells have good chance and all your spont spells are getting 2 extra botch dice. You walk into a city and that is likely 3 extra botch dice. That is just for being in the town/city. You get near the church/castle/graveyard and it is now 4 botch dice. For some reason you have to cast in cathedral and that is 5 botch dice.

You are chasing after an infernalist and you manage to corner him in his lair, infernal aura 4 and to get past his magic resistance provided by his infernal familiar, you use 4 pawns of vis to boost casting total and thus penetration. You are now at 9 botch dice.

This ruling on rituals in calm situations doesn't help against either of those senarios. In fact that first one is fairly common that you have to cast in a crowded market or town because someone reacts to you negatively.

This is why gold cord, cautious sorcerer, flawless magic and mastered spells aren't cheapened.

Lets also mention that mastery brings with it special abilities like quick casting, subtle, silent casting, multi-casting, penetration bonuses (flawless magic means all your xp in master is doubled adn all spells start off mastered).

THen again, you are walking the covenant and something happens for an emergency (timmy fell down the wall again). You are now in stressful situation. That spell mastery means you can't botch in the magic aura with your formulaic spells.

These are all much more common situations than most ritual spells. Gold cord especially since a good gold cord means you can experiment with a +3 risk modifier in the lab and low and behold, you still only have the single botch die. Sure you can specialize you lab to be safer but with gold cord, you don't necessarily need to.

so the only one that this is really issue with is Mercurian magic. You claim it cheapens this virtue since using half vis is half botch dice. The point is that you are using half vis.
I don't know many sagas that every mage can easily have 10 pawns for a level 50 ritual at whim but getting 5 isn't nearly has hard. Not to mention that you get a free wizard's communion and even spell mastery to wizard communion raises its effective level so that you can do the higher level rituals easier.

My personal experience is 20-30 pawns a year of varying types among 6 mages. Take out 4-6 (let's say 6 for a nice aegis) and that is 4 pawns a year a magus. Getting vis for your rituals is not so easy and can take several years to save up. If your covenant doesn't have right type, you might be trading it at 2:1 to get the right type.

Paying half vis for your rituals is a huge boon.

Botching rituals is not a good thing and most of them should not be botched, especially if you take the time to master them. In fact flawless magic becomes that much more powerful since your rituals are all mastered that one important level.

63

Well, in my opinion the RAW is unclear so can be interpreted either way. On the one hand the wording seems to imply that casting Ritual spells is always stressful, so that mastery would not bring the botch dice to zero; on the other, this is not stated explicitly, so one can validly maintain that they can be cast in a "relaxed" manner, but that this still requires a stress roll, and then mastery will bring the botch dice to zero. I see both positions on the RAW as valid, although I'm leaning to adopt the first as more closely fitting the rationale given for why Rituals always use a stress die.

On the matter of what is more desirable, I think that risky rituals actually fit the setting better (there is now at least some reason why magi aren't feeding Europe with magically-created wheat, for example) but safe ones are better for gameplay (getting your wounds healed safely isn't such a hassle to arrange, for example). So it's a matter of saga preferences. I'd personally opt for the gritter, "Playing with Ritual spells is a dangerous game, boy!" option. (I don't think either option too greatly affects the usefulness of the aforementioned virtues.)

64

Yeah, I'm inferring some things, because it isn't explicitly saying, rituals are always cast under stressful conditions. It says it in part, so I have to use some reasoning to get to a stance that I think is RAW. I'm also taking a strong position, almost as devil's advocate. IMS, I'm leaving it to the troupe decide. I might be biased, as I always believed what I am interpreting as RAW. I don't have a strong investment one way or another, Bibracte has tons of vis, it flows like water, and it doesn't really matter to me as an SG.

You touch on some of the things discussed on the forum relatively frequently, the overpowered nature of magic, as it relates to Mythic Europe. For those that want to tone down the power level of their games, this is a really good way to do that. I will add, that the 4th magnitude rituals aren't too big a deal, 3 levels of mastery, Cautious Sorcerer, a strong golden cord all largely mitigate those risks. A Mercurian in a saga without Mastery ability score of 1 mitigating all botch dice gets a huge boost, since he cuts his botch dice in half automatically, and with Cautious sorcerer can cast 8th magnitude rituals! IMO, the real goal is to get down to just one botch die, to avoid the risk of a double botch triggering Twilight episode.

65

You're using game play reasons to justify why you think it should be the way you play it. That's a reasonable way to go. I was looking for something closer to RAW, and admittedly, something closer to my understanding of how dangerous and powerful rituals are. And yes, I had to do a bit of reasoning and inferring to get to what I think is RAW, but now that I've clarified my understanding, I can safely say that I can see how some players and SGs would allow Mastery 1 for Rituals mitigates botch dice. That's ok. We don't have to agree which is RAW, but everyone must understand what method is being used for whatever sagas we may be a part of.
I'm going to disagree that another interpretation is RAW, but I'm not going to disagree that it isn't a common House Rule and may make sense for a lot of sagas.

66

The ritual section does not say that the casting total must equal or exceed the level of the spell. that is only in the formulaic section. Ritulas do not need to follow that rule...unless ritual spells are like formulaic spells except where noted in the Ritual section. But since it is not written in the Ritual section we can argue that it does not follow that rule

67

Hi, just like there are list of new common Guidelines, Shape/Form and Material bonus and books, here i write the list of more or less common Spell Masteries, sorry the language.
mariojpcsimon.blogspot.com/2012/ ... a-ars.html
4shared.com/office/I9lxUjNi/file.html - here on PDF format.
Is it a good help?

68

It is good for those that are fluent in spanish (I assume that is the language from brief read).

I wish there was such a list in english.

69

Well, i can do it, but with time.
I assume taht surely i forgot some Mastery of some book, but i think that is a really completed list, soon on english. It's easy because i don't need write, only copy.

70

First, there are tables that indicate the casting total at which a spell succeeeds and how much fatigue is lost, one for Formulaic and another for Ritual spells. The Ritual Magic tables are referenced in the fifth paragraph. So, while it isn't written explicitly in the ritual section the reader is given a pointer to the location of the information, and it is clearly labeled at what casting totals the spells will succeed and how much fatigue is lost, whether the spell succeeds or not.

Trying to draw comparisons between Rituals and Formulaics is a non-sequitur without a full comparison of the Ritual Magic section. Indeed the entire Ritual Magic section is about how Ritual spells are different from Formulaic spells, a full exception list! It is stipulated in the first sentence of the Ritual Magic section of how the spells are alike, and how they are different. The first sentence is a classic thesis statement, preparing the reader for what is to come. And what is to come is the differences between Formulaic and Ritual spells. The second paragraph expands on how they are different, in that one can add Artes Liberales and Philosophae to boost the casting total. The Third paragraph discusses how and why Vis is used, accentuating a difference between formulaics and rituals. The fourth paragraph discusses why a stress die is always used. The fifth and final paragraph tells the reader to look at the table, and describes a situation that can arise when a magus is fatigued, casts a spell, and wounds themselves.

As I said to Ladyphoenix, you and I can disagree on the interpretation of RAW. What we must agree on is how to handle it in a saga we are both in[1]. I've made my case from what I believe is RAW, or at least closer to raw than Mastery Ability 1 means you can do it relaxed ignoring a chance of botch. It may or may not be good for game play, it may or not be rules lawyering. At this point, that's entirely irrelevant to the issue I put in the Bibracte forum: how troupe wants to play it, based on what my interpretation is. If there is conensus, I'll go with Mastery ability score 1 means you can cast it relaxed. If there isn't, we're doing it based on my interpretation of RAW. You can consider this my ruling as official for that game. I'm allowing the players to come together and veto my ruling and create a HR. I don't see how I can give anymore than that. I've seen SGs give much less.

[1] In the saga Peregrine_Bjornaer is starting, he's ruled that Mastery Ability 1 in a ritual magic spell allows a magus to cast it as relaxed. He may or may not agree with that interpretation for Bibracte, I don't know.

71

Oh, but there is a list of all the Spell Mastery abilities created to date.
germanitas.org/rpg/germ/down ... astery.pdf

72

Well one problem taht i save for me, jeje.
Very good list.

73

Exactly, it does not say so.

No it does not. It says that rituals always use a stress DIE, and that is in no way the same thing.

After JebrickĀ“s reminder itĀ“s beyond obvious that you are completely and utterly wrong.

For those without the others, 6 seasons of practising mastery is a HUGE deal!

RAW says so.

Why would i quote something iĀ“m not replying to?

Because ritual magic is an EXTENSION on formulaic, follows all the same rules except when something else is stated.

Your interpretation contradicts RAW. You casually dismiss parts you dont like. You even go as far as "Call it what you will. SG's perogative." and then keep on claiming itĀ“s RAW. You bend and twist RAW into pretsels and then claim that it supports your argument, even when itĀ“s obvious it does not, and you wonder why i get sarcastic?

74

You deliberately quote portions of what I say in such away as to respond in a most favorable light. I don't care what jebrick or anyone else calls it, that's why I gave him several options to call it something. I'm SG for a game, I'm letting the players decide how to handle it, after I've made my ruling. They can overrule me. As I said, I've seen SGs give far less.

You can say I'm bending and twisting the RAW, but there are others who chimed in early on, and even Yair mentioned just last evening that he leans towards my interpretation. Fine, I acknowledge it is an interpretation. Does that make you happy? I think it's RAW, but I could be wrong. Is that what you wanted, an admission that I could be wrong? Do you understand that because I think I might be wrong I'm letting the players of my saga decide that they can combine together as a troupe, get consensus amongst themselves and veto my interpretation in favor of their own? Have you even read that I'm willing to bend to your interpretation of Mastery ability score 1 in Ritual spell mitigates all botch dice, if it's the desire of a saga?

What more do you want from me? An admission that my interpretation is utterly incorrect? No, you won't get that. If you want that, take it to the Line Editor, and if he says I'm wrong, I will say publicly that I was utterly incorrect.

75

Direwolf, didn't I read that you and your troupe were looking to do a low powered saga? Or am I wrong (and feel free to tell me I am!)?

Such an interpretation would certainly put the breaks on high powered rituals being cast willy nilly, all but the most patient and well prepared magus.

76

That is an impressive document.

I note that there is also a (full?) list in the Project Redcap wiki,

redcap.org/?action=page&page ... al_ability

although that list does not actually gives the mechanics for each special ability (and never will, for copyright/courtesy reasons), and is in HTML rather than such a nice PDF.

Ah, but it also provides a reason for why the stress die is needed - that ritual spells are of high magnitude and have lots of components. Which sounds awfully close to saying these are stressful circumstances using other words.

RAW explicitly says that "if the maga is relaxed there are no botch dice". It does not explicitly say "Ritual spells can be cast in a relaxed manner" just like it does not explicitly say "Rituals are always cast under stressful conditions". Both quotes are simply not in RAW, and are a matter of interpretation.

The whole argument is over the meaning of the sentence

You read it as a paraphrase on "Ritual spells are cast using a stress die even when the maga is relaxed", so see any other interpretation as "utterly mistaken". Jonathan reads it as saying "Ritual spells are always stressful, so are always cast using a stress die", so sees any other interpretation as a "house rule". But from where I'm sitting, both interpretations seem fine and you're both needlessly digging in your heels. This Yet Another Case of ambiguous and unclear rules, that I'm afraid ArM5 has in spades.

77

To be clear, i'm only digging in my heels that I believe it reads a specific way. It's an extremely conservative reading. I am flexible that it may not be applicable or good for any number and types of sagas. An SG can always give, but taking back is extremely difficult and painful.

Yeah, that's splitting hairs. This is, as I have said about like the wards and penetration debate. It took David Chart, IIRC, to say, yes, wards must penetrate is RAW.

78

I'm arguing that his logic is wrong but a stressful situation ( not die) is up the the SG so there is not much to argue on that point. Following my logic, from the book, a mastered Ritual spell COULD be cast with no chance of a botch ( just like a formulaic spell). It says it clearly in the Formulaic section that Mastered spells always use a stress die and can be cased with no botch chance. Then that Ritual spells are like formulaic spells except for the changes noted in the Ritual spell section. So a mastered ritual spell could be cast with no botch if the SG said it was a relaxed casting.

Actually, it does not. Read it again. If a spell caster is a a relaxed situation then it is a simple die. Ritual spells are always a stress die. But as you can see from above, a mastered Ritual spell could be cast with no botch dice.

79

And as Yair has pointed out, neither is explicitly stated in the RAW. Nowhere does the MRB explicitly say Rituals may be cast in a relaxed manner, if they are mastered (they actually can't if they aren't mastered). We are all inferring based on a reading of the rules. I inferred that the differences between Rituals and Formulaics are sufficiently great enough to negate Mastery ability score of 1 in the ritual allows relaxed casting. Others infer that Mastery Ability Score 1 allows a magus to cast in a relaxed manner. It is open to debate. As this discussion progressed, and people decided to say the rules stated one thing (when it was clear that they did not) I adopted debate tactics and picked a position that while I tended to believe, wasn't particularly beholden to.

At the end of things, an SG has to make a ruling, due to the ambiguity. And given that I accept the troupe concept of Ars, I'm letting the troupe veto my ruling and substittue a different ruling tthat might be more commonly understood. Because the saga is already ongoing
If I start another game, I might make that ruling non-negotiable, as I see a lot of stories about characters maximized to minimize botch dice, and those who take their chances and go out in a blaze of glory (rather frequently, granted), and exploring the differences between the two types of characters. However, that will be part of the game contract, up front.

80

It is quite clearly stated in the Formulaic section. With the exception of the Ritual spells are always a stress die, everything I stated is in Formulaic section so is in the RAW. Since relaxed casting is up to the SG the rest is not inferred. If you do not recognize that Ritual spells follow the same rules as formulaic spells except where noted they are different then we are at an impasse.