Spells: Low level distant communication

Three young mages in a fresh covenant need a reliable and affordable method of communication.
Will this work? If not, why?

Grasp the Distant Artifact
InIm 10 (1, Arcane +4, Conc +1, Ind)
You may cast or control spells on an item you have an arcane connection to as if you were touching it.

Circle of Speaking
CrIm 10 (1, T +1, Ring +2, Circle, eligible speech at your directions +2)
Let you speak as if your voice came out of the ring drawn.

Circle of Listening
InIm 5 (1, T +1, Ring +2, Circle, trigger on/off +1)
Let you listen as if your ear where placed inside the circle.

Edit: This will not because Grasp the Distant Artifact is flawed. However the two last spells could work together with Opening the Intangible Tunnel, making this a possible way of communication at a really low level (10).

I'm sorry, I don't see what you're trying to do here? Are you trying to cause the sensation of being touched to the item?
If you wish to cast spells via an AC (Arcane Connection) as if you were touching the full target, you use Opening the Intangible Tunnel (ReVi Gen). If you want to simply activate an item from a distance regardless of it's intended triggering conditions, you use the Herald of Imperative or it's equivalents, derived from the guideline p. 107 of Legends of Hermes (ReVi 5).

You realise you have to draw the Ring as you cast the spell, right?
Wouldn't it be simpler to use CrIm (base 1, R: Arcane, D: Conc) to cause the sounds you wish to form at a location, or possibly ReIm (base 2, R: Arcane, D: Conc) to move the sound of your voice to a certain location?
Yes, the spells would have to cast each time and the ACs brought along, but these spells would certainly work.

I'm sorry, I'm completely confused here?

I am sorry my first post was messy.
As for being confused, I might be confused with something too, but I'll try to explain.

From the rules range is clearly connected to sensing.
It is stated that range is limited to sensing, but you only need to sense it in a way related to the range.
But you don't need to sense all that you affect: e.g. you could see the outer wall of a room and throw a vision room target spell to affect an unknown number of individuals inside it.
Objects can use ranges with simple artificial senses.
Control of your own spells doesn’t even require you could cast any spells, it only that it is within range.

So here it goes:

  • You take a piece of wood (or whatever) and carve a circle on it.
  • Cast the two last spells on this circle. You never cast this spells again, they will remain in effect as long as the circle is not broken.
  • While outside range (touch) you cannot control (or use) the spells.
  • Leave a small piece behind for an arcane connection.
  • Later, when you want to speak to whatever is in the other end, cast the first spell. You “use one sense at a distance” and the spells are within range.
  • Repeat the last step to use again and again as long as the circle is intact.

I might have to add the spell you mentioned, but I am still not sure exactly what the rules about this imply. Still, adding this spell would be doable, adding extra magnitudes to make the other spells arcane range is not, and we need to solve a few things before we can do major research.

ArM5 p 144 CrIm10 Phantasm of the Talking Head
Extend Range to Arcane Connection, and there you have it.

ArM5 p147 ReIm25 The Captive Voice
That might work also, but how far can the bag be?

I wouldn't accept an InIm1 base replacing the ReVi5 base. If done with another Form I would expect it to be at least as high a level, if not higher. Using the given guidelines (LoH p.107) it would be ReVi30 (5, Arcane Connection +4, Concentration +1).


There is a significant difference between being touched and the sensation of being touched.

If I understand your intentions correctly, you are trying to create the sensation/illusion of touch (for the item) and hope to use this as an actual touch to control a device or spell.
I think this would not work, because of the difference between touch and the sensation of touch*

  • circular argument within the post I suppose, but I consider the first statement not an argument but a reminder of external fact.

No, not exactly.
As I understand, you cause a phenomenon which "carries" the magic. This can be touch, sound or the extromission associated with sight.

You mean Sight range, surely.
Vision is a Target.

Source? Spells usually do one thing and that one thing only, flexibility is generally a function of D: Conc spells

If you don't mind leaving an AC around like that, there are better, safer ways to do this.

My Voice Be Heard by the Hearth
ReIm 15 R: Arcane, D: Conc, T: Ind (Base 2, +4 arcane, +1 conc)
While the spell is in effect, the noise made by your voice is is moved to a place you have an arcane connection to.
Because it is the sound of your actual voice, no extra magnitudes are needed.

  • or -

Identical to Phantom of the Talking Head, but range: touch.
used with Opening the Intangible Tunnel ReVi 5 (you might want to change D: Conc to D: Diameter)

If you know you need only hear one voice, create a version of Ear for the Distant Voice with T: Ind, bringing it to InIm 10
This however could be called scrying, so you if you trust eachother with ACs, you might simply want each magus to learn My Voice be Heard by the Hearth (above) and carry ACs to eachother.
Remember that the ACs also increase penetration and even if penetration fails, the reciever will notice the 'ping' agains this parma (p. 85) and so could well choose to lower his parma or return the 'call'.

This spell should work by itself (instead of my first spell). Since the target is in range of any spell (except personal) I regain control my spells on the target. I think this will be my solution for now.

I don’t have access to LoH, but as far as I know this guideline is about triggering enhanced devices (?). I am not trying to trigger anything; I am just trying to have an item “in range”. Is there a different 5 guideline I do not know about?

The rules are pretty clear about this: the bag must be within voice range (of me as if I had a normal voice), so I still have to cast tunnel or add two magnitudes for AC range.

I was confused about the “use X sense at a distance” part of InIm. Reading it more carefully I realize InIm bring images to your senses, not actually using your senses at a distance.

ArM5 pg 111 (and other places): Spells do not expire when you move out of range, and you may regain control once they are within range again (without any specified actions required).

I agree on this one. The item in my case is a ring worn by a traveling magus from my covenant. On my end the connection is locked down and inside our aegis. I trust this mage, but there is always a risk...

I don’t see how this will do anything else than shifting the perception of the item you are connected to by one pace? Am I missing something?

I need two extra magnitudes to change speech at my directions (but not three as I first though, so you helped me solve that one, first post updated with correct range). The original plan was to use lasting spells, so I will need to change the speech as we go for useful two-way communication. This let me keep concentration range on the tunnel since I don’t have to cast additional spells. :slight_smile:

My conclusion (for now) is that I my original idea will work if (and only if) I use Opening the Intangible Tunnel.

Oh, sorry. That was what I thought when you were talking about casting spells on an item. I misread that as "in" instead of "on" because I was considering why you wanted to give it the essence of you touching or speaking to it (activation). Yes, as Vespasian said, this is exactly Opening the Intangible Tunnel. And since you're casting through it, I don't see Imaginem working at all.


the law of arcane connections says that you can't target something un-sensed without an arcane connection. If you have an AC then you don't need to worry about sensing your target.

spells similar to herald of imperitive are only one option. If you know the triggering action for an item you can typically perform it at distance with rego (form) and/or creo imaginem spells as well.

I believe that you'll find nothing in the printed material that uses little portable rings. It is true that the rules do not say that that you can't move rings, but I find mobile rings to clash with my vision of what ring spells should be. Little rings are also so very useful that, if they're legal, the PC's will have to act rather irrationally in order to refrain from their use on a fairly regular basis.

I use a house rule saying that rings must be immobile compared to a sufficiently large chunk of their surroundings (to allow ring spells to be cast on flying castles and large ships) otherwise they are dispelled when they are moved. I like this house rule and I recommend it to you. It makes things harder for magi but I generally find that I'm much more frequently in danger of making things too easy for the magi than too hard.

I'm pretty sure I saw some spell in some official supplement with Ring Imaginem spells cast on the pages of a book. I thought it was in Covenants, but can no longer find it...

Ah, I found it. It's from MoH, p.124 -- it's called Book of Images. Thus, it's canonical that Rings can be mobile, as well as drawn on flexible surfaces.

I'm sorry, I refuse to recognise MoH as canonical with all the bugs it has.

I sort of agree that rings can be abused.
I’ll let my SG decide, but I will suggest a house rule that make small and/or not that sturdy rings decay over time, much like an AC does.

You appear to be giving a simple answer to a less simple question, so I'm a bit confused here.
My apologies, I am easily confused

No, you're quite right that this guideline is about items. Several of us appearantly have been unsure if meant devices or spells.

ArM5, p. 111 (under range)
"Spells that allow the caster to control the effect only permits that control as long as the caster is within range."
Most spells do not allow the caster this sort of control - they are cast and then do what they were to do when cast.
To be honest, I've been more bothered by the control element than the range.

No, you're quite right, I was hasty in this one.

But that's th point - there's no need for a continuing spell that may or may not actually work as intended.
baring hostile aurae, effectively anyone can spont these 2 level 5 spells, meaning that they can be cast as needed.

He wasn´t saying a word about creating items at all, only spells. The idea was to have a spell that would artificially let a magi "touch" the item upon which the other spells had previously been cast and which they have an AC to. Ie achieving magical "Touch" Range access to allow using the other spells that are already active.

I really don´t have a clue if the rules would let the idea work, but half the replies seem to run off in some completely different direction and just add confusion. :confused:

It's just the magi that need to communicate, right?

so what's with all the trouble?

Opening the Intangible Tunnel (possibly with D: Diameter) level 5, combined with Whispering Fingers (apprentices p. 48).
Put words in your ally's mind directly. No silly piece of wood for someone to steal.

I think Projects actually has some effects for this (chapter about the Tower), but I might be wrong.

But seriously, communication should be complicated, there's a whole house dedicated to be mailmen!
Consider accepting it and having it be a complication - 'cause complications make stories more fun.