Stone Watchman & Fingers for Eyes

I would tend to agree. However, Magical Senses are a special case, as pages 113 and 114 outline. They create an effect that does need to penetrate, so those with Might/Parma/etc. are protected from the snooping effect.

Checked it (yes, I have a copy of ArM5 at work :stuck_out_tongue:). It seems that you are right. It makes no sense at all given the paradigm or later publications, but it is explicitly stated in the ArM5 RAW. Doesn't the HOH:S book contradict this? I thought so.


I see no contradiction - it explicitly states that a type of spell which would need to penetrate still needs to penetrate. The InIm does not target anything with Magic Resistance so penetration is unecessary. Or, if you like, species do not have MR so the spell automatically penetrates. It's the difference between "Are there wolves in this room?" (InAn) and "I want to see in this room" (InIm). The former needs to penetrate, and will tell you number of wolves etc, regardless of their visibility or supernatural status; the latter will show you the contents of the room, but not any invisible or hiding wolves, nor is it any use in the dark.

Thanks marklawford, is about get one Oak Bjornaer with senses, but to grant one pseudo automata senses when somebody "ride" it magically. In this second thing, the Pseudoautomata includes one enchantment similar to one of MoH, that it strengthens the Penetration of some effects.

Magical sense spells don't just collect species, they collect other information. Look at shiver of the wolf in the core book (at least I think that's the name, it's an intellego corpus spell that detects werewolves by touch, I'm pulling this from memory so I could be mistaken), or Stench of Hate or Opinions of the Masses from Lambert in Magi of Hermes.

A magical sense spell feeds you magical information through your normal senses so you can literally feel werewolves, smell distaste, or hear peoples thoughts but the magical sense spells can't pull the magical information out of a target without penetrating.

Now you can enchant one of these spells into an invested device at range personal and use it for a linked trigger with another effect in the device (Ranulf's talisman in Magi of Hermes does this with shriek of the impending shafts, (hey, shriek of the impending shafts, there's another core book example). And despite the fact that an object doesn't have a nose or ears or eyes, the effect still works (which is backed up by spells such as stone tell of the mind that sits which imply that objects do have senses).

What Mark did with Stone Watchmen that is new is that he used a magical sense spell to collect normal sensory information rather than do some sort of magical detection and collect information through the normal senses. Now there's no reason you couldn't devise a magical spell to collect information available to the caster through there normal senses but unless you're enchanting an item there isn't really any obvious use for it(a spell that tells the caster what the caster is presently smelling isn't particularly useful).

[spoiler]The weirdness in the system that brings these issues up is the issue that intellego imaginem spells that allow you to see places have conventional targets (like prying eyes, and so on from the beginning of the thread) this makes for weirdness when you move your sense of sight. The caster can typically see a target (individual, room, etc.) but not beyond it, which isn't the way that vision actually works. This is why To See as Through a Plethron Distant and View from the Mannequin have special targets.[/spoiler]

I still think that Prying Eyes etc count as magical senses and therefore need to Penetrate. This, to me, seems to be the only sensible way to read the rules.

However, another interpretation, which gets, I think, to the same answer is that Prying Eyes etc use Room target to affect the things in the room. That, by definition is what Room target means. Therefore, as the things in the room are affected, they need to be Penetrated (if they happen to have Magic Resistance) for that effect to happen.

Yes but species don't have MR and the species are what are hit by the intellego spell.

The things generating the species (may) have MR.

Sure, but you are not targeting those with an Intellego Imaginem spell.
You are targeting the species, which are generally non-magical even if "shed" by a magical being.
And an Intellego Animal spell to detect vermin cast with a target:Structure does not fail simply because in the Structure resides a magus with an active Parma.

True. Thankfully the spell as written neither detects nor targets them, but rather the entirely resistance-free species they emit. You could, I suppose, use InIm to detect objects capable of emitting species, thus detecting invisible-but-corporeal items and entities, and that would indeed need to penetrate but would also cross species, material and realm boundaries. An interesting way of going about it, but I'm not sure it'd be easier than any other method you might use.