Study and Books

Games Discussion Ars Magica
21

Like all the best systems, there are subtleties.

Let us consider a small sample of theoretical Mages.

Magus Smartypants the Weakling with +3 Int and -3 Sta will be able to accumulate knowledge scores faster (that is Stat +ability scores relying on Int) and learn/invent more complicated things in the labs (higher level spells for example). His magic may be more developed, but have less puff behind it.

Magus BoxofHammers Builtlikeabrickshithouse with -3 Int and +3 Sta will have more oomph behind his magic - more raw power if you will, but will lack the knowledge to back that up - he can't learn/invent the same level of spells because his lab score is substantially lower.

Consider both mages with Art scores of 5 in everything and MT 4. Given a standard lab and a moderate +3 Aura, SPtW can learn level 20 spells (5+5+4+3+3) while BoHBlaBSH cannot even learn level 15 (5+5+4-3+3).

They both learn a CrIg combat spell (taking one full season).
BoHBlaBSH can learn a Lvl 10 spell with a casting total (sans aura) of 13+DR. He can cast all day no problem, and can penetrate low levels of Magic resistance.
SPtW can learn a Lvl20 spell (PoF) with a casting total (sans aura) of 7+DR. He finds casting this tiring, may even fail sometimes, and has very little chance of penetrating any MR at all. But its does a lot more damage and is a hell of a lot scarier if he gets it off.

Meanwhile Magus Talkthehindlegsoffadonkey with Int 0 Sta 0 Com +4 finds that nobody else cares about the other two Magi's work while he can trade/sell his tractati at a premium price.

And Magus Lookatmei'mawesome with his Int 0 Sta 0 Com 0 Pre +4 is developing into prime leadership material within the group and ends up being the Head Honcho of this little covenant telling all the others what to do.

There simply isn't a simple rule of thumb for mages that they all favour one particular stat more than any others. Each has their place, and Magi of all types can be found.

To suggest otherwise is using a Box of Hammers. :wink:

Corbon

22

Eerrg, what they said.
[size=75]
Corbon, you have a way with names ... :smiley: [/size]

23

Okay nods

Who or what made the decision that Stamina would be the score that determined thre oomhp behind a mages strength of Gift? And why?

I hate to bring up very stupid stereotypes... But I recall a certain DnD character in Dragonlance who was a powder-puff in the area of strength, and Stamina, but a royal bad ass when it came to magic. His power was astounding, and it wasn't just because of knowledge, it was because he was naturally gifted with power.

Something I had laways assumed was the case with Ars Magi, they were naturally gifted.

BTW, I REALLY hate bringing that up, but it is an appropriate example of something mage-ish, that runs contrary to the rules set.

I might have an idea or two of my own how to fix it, using Virtues, but I'll wait for now to see what you guys have to say.

24

LoL, Bravo Corbon. You're my new hero. I am dissapointed that you didn't point out the Magus Evensteven, who has +1 in every stat can learn a level 15 spell, and has a casting total of 11+DR. Hehe.

I guess if you had to make up someone like whatshisdndface you could have a low Stamina along with: Mythic Blood and/or Method Caster. Plus study in Penetration can make up for low Stamina in such a caster.

Or maybe he has a physical flaw or curse that makes his Stamina -3 for everything but spell casting (but he has to pay for his positive score, of course).

Or HEY! Maybe he's a non-Hermetic spell caster with an odd gift that requires him to re-learn a spell everytime he casts it, but generates some huge casting total in these few spells he can hold in his damaged brain at a time.

25

Ars Magica 1st Edition - Stamina has been the Characteristic for casting Formulaic & Ritual spells sicne the ArM game was invented...
The one change 5e has made that you are noticing is that it changed the Characteristic used for Spont spells, from Int to Sta, to match the rest of spell casting. This is part of a general trend in 5e for simplification & consistency (in a game which still is complex and has inconsistencies - but better than before!)

Also, it avoids the stereotype of the <all points in Int, nothing else matters> wizard (of "some games").
In ArM, there are different aspects of magic, which bring out or depend on different aspects of the magus character.
Int - for invention, lab work especially
Sta - for willpower and to resist fatigue
Com - for writing, which magi value highly
and for combat magi
Per for Finesse to Aim spells
and Qik to help win fast-cast and initiative contests and get your spell in first
and now with TMRE
Pre - for Mysteries - the Mystagogue must needs be charismatic to sway and induce Initiates.

All of these have V/F which interact with their magical effects.

And you can do it, largely, with V/F - consider Small Frame, Weak-will, Fragile Constitution, Obese - all of which weaken will-power, soak, toughness, fatigue recovery etc, while leaving spell-casting untouched.

There are also many Virtues which add to spell-casting without affecting Sta - a Sta +0 (or -ve) magus is very viable...

Not only that, but compared to DND, an ArM specialist is much more powerful in-speciality (consider the power of a Major Magical Focus, combined with Puissant Arts and Affinity with Arts - add +50-% Xp to a favour Te & Fo, add +3 to score of each, and add the lower again to magic totals). Add Potent Magic too, and you are well away, and completely dwarf the minimal difference bwteen Sta +0 and Sta +3!

not really contrary - as shown above!

26

Actually, wasn't it the result of an Ordeal imposed by the local Mystery Cult? :slight_smile:

He's obviously a theurgist, summoning the spirit of yourspellhere every day. :smiley:

27

Okay nods thoughfully

I had considered the very real idea of divorcing casting from over all stats altogether honestly.

Consider a "Virtue Set" for the GIft.

Any mage with the Gift can learn and cast. "The GIft" is a free virtue, and enables you to learn. cast etc. But provides no bonus at all in the various formulas determining casting ability

A minor Virtue "The Gift"[taking precedence here from Quiet magic I believe it is] - Indicates a gifted person with a particular knack(not the virtue either) for magic. When the various magical forumulas are used, add (variable amount here +1 to +3 would seem ot fit) to all totals.

A Major Virtue "The Legendary Gift" - Indicates a gifted person with a particularly extrordinary knack(not the virtue) for magic. When the various magical forumulas are used, add (variable amount here +3 to +5 would seem ot fit) to all totals.

That set of virtues woulds still fit the game, allowing anyone to possess the Gift as a free virtue as they do now in the current ruleset, and displace the need for even considering a stat from the GIft, Also showing people of average to extrordinary natural in-born ability with magic.

Stamina still serves it's functions in soak, and recovery, and Intelligence still determines just how "Smart" a person is and how well they can learn and absorb knowledge(using the system there is now)

More extraordinary ability. or loss of ability is represented by the virtues and flaws that modify magic that already exist.

Thoughts?

28

That's pretty much what Puissant Art and Potent Magic do, except they are both restricted to specific areas at which the character excels. Similarly, Cyclic Magic, Special Circumstances require you to define some conditions under which your character's magic is more powerful.

I don't think that a virtue that gives a blanket bonus to all magic is a good idea: it becomes a must-have munchkin virtue for all characters without really adding any flavour. Not having it becomes, comparatively speaking, a flaw.

29

That's kinda why I suggested at least for the larger one that it be a major virtue, to up the cost and make it less attrractive over all.

It could easily be balanced out by negative versions of the Virtue as well, indicating an over all weak gift.

And it's not that over balanced really when you consider your merely replaceing Stamina which is likely to be some positive number anyway near at LEAST to the minor version I listed. It really does define a powerful "Gift" given by birth, more so than the differnce betwen a Mage who hobbies in a illuminators hole versus one who hobbies in a Blacksmith's shop, and thus one has a significant greater stmina than the other.

At least this way, it represents strength of gift over all versus luck of job(under normal circumstances anyway, I suppose someone who lives most of his life sitting down on his butt, and writing books all day could have a rather significant Constitution). You also make it a Major(for the larger bonus) Virute to make the cost significant enough to be re-considered before taking it.

30

"I don't think that a virtue that gives a blanket bonus to all magic is a good idea:"

I probably should have made it clear it was meant to replace stamina, in ACTIVE magic use. Not lab work... which Intelligence is supposed to be for.

Guess I wasn;t so clear on that. Sorry.

31

Why?

Aside from the already mentioned 'how boring, so vanilla, everyone must have this'...

  1. Adding a stat to the casting total keeps things consistant rules wise (always a good thing)
  2. Stat bonuses/penalties are miniscule compared to other bonuses and penalties acquirable through flaws or abilities - remember, +/-3 are basically min-maxed (requires virtues or flaws to adjust further)
  3. Stamina is not just physical, its also mental. The ability to push yourself harder or further, what makes one person run through the pain barrier when another collapses for example. Stamina, representing both physical and mental toughness/force/power/resilience/other, seems to me to be the exactly right stat for casting spells. Magus Whatsisdndface probably doesn't have a -ve stamina (because mentally he is so tough, even though he is physically weak) just flaws like fragile constitution etc.

If you are looking for a blanket 'this Mage's midi-chlorian count is off the meter', consider some very, very basic virtue/ability combinations.
Eg Puissant Penetration + Penetration score 4 (not hard for even a starting magus to have). Every spell this guy casts has at least a +6 penetration. "His magic is just naturally potent it seems, as it doesn't bounce off things where other's might."
Or Boosted magic (with a vis supply) - "this Magus has such a potent gift he seems to be able to do more powerful things than his age and or experience would indicate should be possible".
Or Enduring magic - "this Magus has such a potent gift that the effects last 2,5, even 10 times longer than those of other Magi."
The list is (almost) endless...

Corbon

32

look at eg Method caster for something which already does what you say.

Do remember, for any "improvement", that you should aim not to eliminate the need/utility of existing Virtues.

So, if Puissant Art gives +3 to a single Art in all uses, and Method Caster gives +3 to casting Formulaic spells in "standard" manner, it is clear that "+3 to casting" is a greater bonus than either - it has wider scope (all casting vs formulaic standards, or all arts but casting only) and is unrestricted.

5e has been carefully tuned already to restrict the scope of bonuses to avoid blanket "affects all magic"... anything which adds a bonus to "all magic" does indeed become a "Must Have", as Corbon pointed out.
Think on it instead as the combination of "The Gift"(*) and "Hermetic Magus" already provies the "must have" standard package that all magi can't do without, and that all other Virtues are then specializations & tuning.

(* look carefully at The Gift - it is not confined to Hermetic Magic - the true key is the free Status "Hermetic Magus"... And it is Free, not because it is worthless, but because in a game of plaing magi, you want every magus to have this, to mark them as "their magus".
ArM doesn't balance the power of characters to any great extent - instead it marks characters for different roles - and magi are very powerful, and mainly restricted to "one per player" but then lets them rip as the "most powerul type of character")

33

I started with the 3rd edition and I must say I like that learning system even now.
There wasn't even qualities of the books, only levels. I liked it the best because now I must be almost a bookkeeper to record that many statistics.

34

I hate to go back to a previous part of this particualr subject but

If you make this statment...
"Stamina is not just physical, its also mental. The ability to push yourself harder or further, what makes one person run through the pain barrier when another collapses for example. Stamina, representing both physical and mental toughness/force/power/resilience/other, seems to me to be the exactly right stat for casting spells."

You can't step forward and deny the effect Intelligence has on learning.

The Stats either affect the respective items, and Intellect does affect learning and it's quality, or they don't. And Stamina really does need a divorce from casting totals.

Both are stats that have an affect on quality of many things. Both should have equal application, or none at all.

And before you mention Lab work and Intelligence. Lab work IS learning. So it would still apply.

35

Stats affect the application of the skills, not their acquisition. Casting a spell is one such application.

If Int give bonus XP, it is inherently superior to all other stats.

I disagree: it is research, an application of both things you already know and of your faculties of deduction (Int). There is a bit of learning involved, and that is represented by experience in MT (regardless of success or failure of your research).

Even learning spells is now described as re-inventing them.

36

I concur.

Even though my troupe, being midgame when 5th ed. came, still haven't gotten around to adopt all of the 5th rules. However we will and it is not out of dislike that we've tarried a bit with some of them.

37

I must apologize, I was not aware this had been well documetned and printed long before I came to this thread ....

Intelligence (p. 18): Replace the first sentence with "Intelligence represents the power to analyse and synthesise concepts, as well as simple memory." Expand the end of the final sentence: "common sense, street savvy, wisdom, and the ability to learn are not described by Intelligence."

I am not sure I agree with that determination, but at least it was blatantly stated outright in rules(even if they were errata). At least rules-wise I can now point to this and say it was in the book, and it wasn't just an "omission".

I still like the idea of divorcing magic casting ability from Stamina.

As the player says "Apparently all mages are buff and hardy, or they aren't very good casters". Which led me to some of my former comments.

It trades a dependence on a "Must have" situation form one thing to another. Good Mages, MUST HAVE, Good stamina to be good casters. Mages with God Stamina on top of good vritues that apply to casting are tjust that much better.

[Note ; Post was made without reading anything prevoious to this since my last post. It's just something I noticed and had to comment on]

38

True, but you only have so many points to buy stats with. If you raise your Sta, it is at the expense of something else. Now you have an actual trade-off, rather than having Int be the optimal choice.

Yup. And they can also compensate for their high Sta by taking flaws that make them physically sickly.

39

there is indeed a lot of mileage to be found in Sta +3 plus a batch of Flaws that make the physical side weak, while leaving the strength-of-will and magical-force intact.
There is no optimimum for magi in having high Sta - and most magi I've seen have Int +3, Sta +1 ish ... if you put your limited characteristics points into Sta +3 (7 points vs 1 point for Sta +1), you have little left over - and Int is generally more useful for magi.

40

"Yup. And they can also compensate for their high Sta by taking flaws that make them physically sickly."

Yeah you can. but with other options available that a player may find acceptable, why bother?

Saying you CAN, is a vastly differnt thing than saying "you should" or "you must"

Just because you CAN make a sickly mentally strong character, doesn't mean you will get players who will.

It still gives Stamina an AWFUL lot of power in the game over the other Stats in terms of Magi usefulness.

If we're trying to escape the "must have" Stat, something has to be done to escape the need for Stamina as that very stat.