Suggestion for covenant management rules in Ars Magica 6

Games Discussion Ars Magica
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Hello, all

I've recently been browsing through my Ars Magica books. After skimming the management rules from "Covenants," I realized that the thoroughness of abstraction makes the mechanics seem somewhat dry. While I can definitely see the advantages of more abstracted mechanics, namely more room for Storyteller interpretation and a faster process, if you're like me, and actually enjoy micro-management, then it's more of a disadvantage. Added to the lack of detail, I also find that that the abstraction, especially reducing revenues and expenditures to Mythic Pounds, feels anachronistic. Ars Magica is an amazingly well-researched game, which is why I'm surprised that the developers came up with a revenue system that better reflects running a business in a capitalist society than a manor/trade consortium/etc in medieval times. The expenditure system reflects medieval society much better, but was presented too abstractedly.

My first suggestion is to use a resource system with the Mythic Pound as the universal equivalent. Importantly labor itself would count as a resource, since so much of the medieval economy revolved around customary service obligations rather than the exchange of commodities. It's not really necessary for the resources to be extremely specific, but some detail beyond MP would make the mechanic of managing the covenant reflect the conditions it's supposed to represent. The players would spend labor in one season and then reap the result in the upcoming seasons. Thus, a typical manor covenant would spend X peasant labor in the spring and fall, and receive Y staple consumable depending on the weather and circumstances. A consortium covenant could spend Z coin and receive A luxury goods, which they spend again to receive B coins, depending on prices.

Example resources

Unfree/peasant/corvee labor (which is cost-free but assumes a subject population with land to sustain themselves, and possibly causes problems (IE riots, revolts, etc) if too much labor is demanded)

(Specialist)'s labor which is used to create and maintain objects (smith for tools, builders and masons for castle walls, monks for books, etc)

Mythic Pounds meaning actual coin

Miscellanea clay pots, cloth, bits of wood, baskets, common clothes, stuff that is generally produced by unskilled workers often for own household's consumption

Luxury goods nice clothes, jewelry, art, etc

Staple consumables bread, vegetables, common drink, etc

Luxury consumables spices, strong/rare drink, etc

Herds of animals

My second suggestion is to please make one system that can be applied to covenants, merchants, craftsmen, nobles, etc. Or at least an easy way to convert one to the other.

That being said, please finish the new edition soon! :smiley:

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So really, what you're asking for is a more detailed explanation of the "Extremely Complex Wealth Management" optional variant from that sidebar? I could see that, but then again the management rules will probably be completely revamped, to the point where less (or more!) abstraction might be impractical for the system.

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I guess? Although the sidebar still seems to suggest measuring everything in Mythic Pounds. the developers should come up with a way of qualitatively measuring resources and labor, opening opportunities for covenant management to become a resource management game that feels like you're directing a manor/trade consortium/etc rather than like you're trying to balance the books of a modern business.

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Did you see the article on covenant resource management in the latest Sub Rosa?

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I haven't.

6

Hmmmm....
Here I have to disagree. As one who runs a large long lived saga, I would rather sweep all that covenant management nonsense under the carpet and instead have guidelines to handwave the whole thing. If I wanted to worry about resources and struggling with bean counting, I would play D&D.
Which I sorta do anyway. I set the covenant up to be wealthy enough to ignore petty problems, so I have space to tell tales that are more epic and interesting that supplying all the grogs with new clothes.

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That's my bad attitude speaking. Those may well be fun stories for you and you deserve a structure. It is just not for me.

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Hahaha! Yeah, that's basically what I want to do but in a way that reflects feudal rather than modern times.

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I think one thing worth pointing out is that covenants are expected to be a lot more self-sufficient than noble lands, even those covenants in partial poverty. Covenants aren't really handled in a feudal style because the Order of Hermes isn't a terribly feudal construct. Their main currencies are vis, silver, and seasons of service, rather than abstract forms of wealth like obligations and dozens of little favors and Gratitude. Covenants are run in a modern way because they are excessively modern in comparison to their mundane neighbors. I mean, magi are largely non-Christian, have nothing but free time, and don't have a regular supply of people capable of replacing them. For example, you want an apprentice and you aren't a Bonisagus, you generally take a smart Gifted lad or lass when you find one, unless doing so would have political ramifications; although individual magi might be able to pull it off, the Order as a whole can't afford to maintain such things as sexism, religious discrimination, class segregation between fellow magi (covenfolk aren't part of this equation, magi are infinitely better than the peons XD), and perhaps most importantly, holding each other to feudal-style obligations. Coin and credit are much more reliable than feudal obligation and favor-trading for the Order, because the Order's society doesn't inherently support the feudal option the way, well, feudalism does.

It's another example of everything being done by Mythic Pound, but the grogs getting new clothes is covered: specialists and craftsmen (including, for example, tailors) are bought with build points and paid a certain amount every year. (I know that their build point cost is based on their skill, but I don't remember if that's the case for how much money you have to spend on them... I'm pretty sure it's not... Right?)

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Hi,

The issue as I see it is not that the system we have is too simple or too complex, but that we have too many systems for resource management, and they combine poorly.

We have mythic pounds. We have work points. We have Poor/Typical/Great/I forget. We have Boon/Hook Points (yes, this does matter, because these translate into the other units; sometimes they can even be traded! Though this doesn't really happen, so it might not be reasonable for me to raise that here.) We have seasons (this is also a measure of exchange; magi trade it, for example; it is also quite medieval since many obligations are represented as "time served.")

What I want: Two systems. One abstract and one detailed.

The detailed system should be based on pence and pounds, and maybe vis. It should have price lists for goods and services. Representing services is especially important for covenants that largely operate as manors, with little to no currency. The system should represent that different people with the same amount of xp but different professions earn vastly different incomes. The quantity chart in C&G can, with modifications, fit here. It should be possible to build and manage a covenant using this system. Need to track where different resources come from and in what quantities? Sure. Complex? Yes. But story opportunities abound, especially at the companion/grog level.

The abstract system should be based upon the detailed system. Obviously, things will be lost in translation. Small inconsistencies will occur every now and then. But it should be possible to run a covenant and story without ever referring to a pound or work point. A noble magus "above concerns like mere money" might think of his covenant this way even in a grittier saga in which the companion/grog factors, capos and grubby peddlars use the detailed system. (Example: The troupe decides that their covenant is the city of Novgorod, which has grown in prosperity in large part due to the steady stewardship and long term oversight that long-lived magi and their entourage provide; the magi might not care about the intricacies of the fur trade or managing a city, but care that someone does....) A group that doesn't want to deal so much with these issues can just adapt the abstract system and be done.

I hate work points. Labor points, whatever. To me, they are a botch result. Maybe a double botch. I hate that Wealth represents the ability to gain more xps: People with leisure time tend to just get more (and different) Exposure. Call me crazy, but a virtue called "Wealth" should provide, um, capital of some kind. I hate the way on the one hand, labor points represent variable amounts of value and effort and output but on the other, we sometimes have output represented as labor points. Um. A system like that is worse than no system at all. I note that since way, way back, AM has included a system for representing seasonal effort based on an Ability and modifiers: The Lab Total.

Anyway,

Ken

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I second Orvawa's suggestions.

I disagree, Akriloth. This is largely a matter of interpretation, but I've always seen the Order as an essentially pre-modern institution: Hierarchies, for example, are ever present and enforced by law and personal force. We have master-apprentice relationships, hierarchies within covenants. hierarchies between covenants, hierarchies within house, etc. Legal privileges are enjoyed by certain houses. House Mercere has a stranglehold on commerce.That's just between Hermetic magi. Consider that the Order largely treats other traditions as illegitimate and their practitioners as outlaws. Consider the legal demarcation between covenfolk and magi in covenants. Consider their differences in roles, where magi largely pursue their own interests and live off the covenfolk. Hermetic magi aren't more modern than mundanes just because they don't happen to share the same biases. They're just different and distant from mundane matters. They're weird, like magi should be.

And that's just assuming that all magi have left their mundane biases behind: The Flambeau fought against the Moors in Iberia. The Jerbiton are depicted as having affinity with what's left of the Byzantine empire. House Diedne was destroyed partly because of its non-Roman roots. Magi are sometimes depicted in the canon as being haughty towards uneducated mundanes because of their ignorance and lack of culture, an attitude shared with educated churchmen and scholars.

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I only meant that they have relatively modern economics, not that they're modern in general. Though I maintain that we disagree on how feudal they are. I think they're sufficiently "weird" that it surpasses mere extreme oddity and becomes a distinct form. What they have isn't modern, sure, but it's also not really a product of the time, because the cultural and biological pressures aren't there. Magi don't serve people, they rarely need to make use of military might for anything, it's rare to come across people who can become magi, and perhaps most importantly, unlike the small percentage of people who are nobility or clergy in Mythic Europe, the small percentage of people who can be magi are almost never the children of previous magi. Plus, magi inherently don't care as much about things like money and using their well-equipped armies to stroke their egos, and more about things like vis and fine literature that are worth saving up aforementioned silver for, which obviously causes cultural differences as well.

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I'd disagree. Barring magic, magi still need to eat and clothe themselves, build and maintain shelter, use crafted goods, etc. Again barring the use of magic, the work done to meet these needs is usually performed or paid for using goods produced by covenfolk. The relationship between magi and covenfolk, like the relationship between nobles and subjects or churchmen and flock, is one of exploitation. Would it really make a tremendous difference if a peasant village's tribute is used to maintain a magus' lab rather than a knight's retinue? Or if Flambeu Murderface rather than Sir Killsalot shows up to threaten them into paying? Issues of internal organization aside, the Order's relationship with 85%-95% of the population (rural peasantry) is functionally the same as nobles' or churchmen's.

The Order's internal organization may be different, but it's organized in a way to protect certain entrenched interests and privileges. These interests may be embodied in Houses and lineages rather than families and their purpose for securing resources may be for research rather than self-glorification or religion, but the relationships involved are similar.

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As Magica: Class Warfare edition, coming soon.

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Now, I apologize if I'm butting in on a discussion I don't belong in. But in response to this point, I'd just like to say that it's a lot easier for Hermetic magi to not live in this type of system than it would be for a noble to stay successful while trying something else. Magi have both magic, and a lack of neighbors/churchmen who will try to have them cast out for spicing things up. It would certainly be an unusual occurrence, but the magi of the Order are probably some of the extreme few (or even only!) people in Mythic Europe who would be capable of implementing and thriving in a different style than their mundane neighbors. I mean, there will always be at least a slight imbalance, and usually more; no amount of magus generosity or hopefulness for equality can ever change the fact that magi need free seasons to do lab work and have inherently different priorities from mundane people. But it would certainly be possible for them to narrow that gap in significant ways that mundane neighbors could never get away with while keeping any semblance of their livelihood. At the end of the day, all magi really need are a couple of assistants (who could be paid for the job) and enough tax money going to them to take care of themselves (or have somebody take care of them). And given that magi can often be quite helpful, for example when dragons or crop blights strike, I'm pretty sure most covenfolk would be willing to pay that tax, even if every other facet of covenant life were ran in an extremely alternative way (oh my god is that a democracy? Everybody run for your lives!).

My point is that while most will be, not every government involving magi needs to be a feudal magocracy. It's just the easiest option :laughing:

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:laughing:

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It's part of the game and it's baked in. Magi rule, and everyone else drools.
You can certainly tell stories about magi not ruling, or being wealthy above and beyond that of mortal men, but then you're doing a middle ages version of The Dresden Files, right? And even Harry made bank in the most recent novel (that's all I'll spoil).

How would you tell stories about a covenant, if they aren't the de facto rulers of the land? The covenant is the central character in Ars. It gets shaped and colored by the members and those who live within it, including those who are ruled.

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Thing is, not all of Europe is fully feudalized to the extent that, say, France or England is. Iberia is only partially feudal. Andorra not at all.
I honestly do not like bean counting games. I much rather have an abstraction.
Now, there is a disharmony between Covenant resources and Labor points (or wahatever they are). The later system comes from books I do not have and dont much interest me. Yet I have players with craftsmen companion characters that, justifyably, want to use their special talents and rules. But IMO, that pulls the game far away from fantasy and magic.
So honestly, this is an area where I would rather have less than more.

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Ars Marxica

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These kinds of posts are the reason this forum needs a like button.

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