Hi,
What I understand, for "summoning" you use: Demon Summoning: Summoning Total + (sorcerer’s Hierarchy Score x 5) vs. Target Level + (demon’s Hierarchy Score x 5)
The first part is defined as: Summoning Total: stress die + Presence + Summoning + (Realm) Lore + aura + (Penetration x Penetration Modifier)
The second part is what is unclear. The text for demon summoning say: "and the storyguide adds the demon’s (Hierarchy Score x 5) to the Target Level." refering to target level, which is defined much later. The "+5x HS of the demon" is very clear. It adds to the "target level", not "the might of the demon"
In the text, later, in bold, it says "Summoning [...] Target Level: spirit’s Might x 2"...
But the written text (after having explained "sourging" mechanism in comparison with summoning mechanism) says:
"When you have determined the final total, the storyguide should compare it to the spirit’s Might score. If the sorcerer’s total is at least double the Might, the spirit is summoned and appears within the circle where the caster can see it. It can hear him, and he can hear it when it speaks. It must remain there until he dismisses it, sending it back to whence it came and ending the summoning, or until the next midday or midnight, whichever comes first. " (which is in a paragraph before : "If the Summoning or Scouring Total is not double the spirit’s Might, but is at least equal to the spirit’s Might, the spirit is summoned, but the sorcerer must maintain concentration on the effect or the spirit is free to remain or depart whenever it likes. " which seem clea in the fact that the previous paragraph applies well to summoning and not only to scourging.)
By "final total" it's spoken of the "summoner's side" of the roll. Which need to be compared to something.
The text seems to say "double the might" for in circle, "more than the might" for "not in circle".
But later, in bold, it says "Summoning [...] Target Level: spirit’s Might x 2"
So if I consider that Target level in the first formula then apply the text, that means:
- "double "the target level (+ hierarchy score x5 for demon)" = in circle
- "more than target level (+HS x5)" = not in circle.
and since target level = already might x2, it must double (might x2 + HSx5) to be "in circle".
So I'm not sure. ThusI opened this thread just to be sure because I find the text in RoPtI conflicting with the "bold" formulae in RoPtI:
Up until now I always used double than (might x2 +HSx5) for demon summoning in circle. If it missed but still was more than (might x2 +HSx5), the summoning (or scourging if using the scourging total) would succeed but "not in circle".
But re-reading it, I'm not sure I have not been too severe.
Since summoning for the NPC I was upgrading is reaching a total of ~100 + stress die roll (presence 6, summoning 32, penetration 9 and AC due to true name, HS1) which rolled a total of 107, I'm wondering if the level 27 demon HS5 (either 54+25 or 27+25) would be not in circle (my take) or in circle (the doubted version).
What is your answer?
In my opinion, the whole thing makes more sense with double (target level [=might x2] +HS x5), because it succeeds if it reaches target level (+HSx5). But "succeeding" is not enough for the power given, so "double succeeeding" is also given an explanation to allow "two level" of power of summoning, one who let the summoner do what it wants ("in circle" version), one where he can try to do things but it's not easy ("not in circle" version).
If we just consider the -- should be the basis -- "succeeding without doubling" (= "not in circle" version), it makes no sense to define the target level as might x2 because that would mean the "target level" is already defined as the "double succeeding" which should be the extra, not the norm.
So I personaly think I'm right and that the target level is might x2 (+HSx5) and that for summoning in circle, you need to double that, hence double (might x2 +HSx5). Which, for spirit which are not demon, means in short, exceed might x4.
A second argument I take is that sentence in the last paragraph of summoning: "Note that if the Summoning or Scouring Total was not at least double the Target Level "; it is clear there that "might x2" in the previous take might have been a mitake, because here it says explicitly double the target level, which was already defined as might x2, so it essentialy says might x4.
The +HSx5 part is still in debate.
Maybe it should be double (target level = might x2) +HSx5, but seen my reasoning before, it makes no sense, so I really think it's double (might x2+ HSx5).
Exar
PS: too bad the whole ars goetia part of RoPtI contains no example, it would have been clearer :D.