Table Talk - Development

The covenant aura does not count as wilderness. The local animals are either domestic or living in a civilized aura. They do not count. The lab horde soundsfine though

That is correct

Hmm. So she can't pull an "Enchanted" and have the local undomesticated animals come help her do stuff? :frowning: I was so looking forward to that, which is why I went with Animal, rather than a terrain.



Wow, lots of cool stuff shaping up. Fixer, I’m glad I’ve got another brother-in-arms – I believe Inigo is the only character so far who's not in any way associated with nature or Faerie :open_mouth:. Well, I guess Dimir has SFB, but I’ll forgive him. :slight_smile:

Mark, I just want to make sure I'm understanding about vis:
Do we get the amount described in the post in the Looking For Players forum (10 pawns plus an additional 4 pawns for every year short of the full 20) and that amount only? This assumes that that amount was included in income from Andorra. That is, our total vis gain over the course of our adventuring, living at Andorra, and killing nasties should be equal to this amount?
Do we get vis from living at Andorra, and assume it adds up to the amount described above? This seems somewhat unlikely.
Do we get both? You seemed to imply that in your earlier post, but I wanted to double check this before I go forth assuming I have about half a queen of vis (!) to work with.

Also, do we have to account for vis potentially burned on adventures?

Well the covenant (house) proper, being a castle, I would agree is NOT wilderness, but everything surrounding it (i.e. the mountain range down to the lowlands) should of course be wilderness unless the entire area is an urban population center.

Wilderness (in its several topographies) is anywhere where there is no predominant human development.

Needless to say I wouldnt have my sanctum/lab inside the walls of the castle.

My character is ready to play, if she is approved by Mark.

About Marie's creation:
Marie has a total of 754 xp (+Native language) right after apprenticeship. That is 290 xp more than a normal rule Magus.
She gets another 451 xp after her Gauntlet (12 years), for a total of 1205xp, which is exactly 10xp/season after early childhood.
I don't want to re-create Marie but I have to create a character that only gets 10xp/season after her Gauntlet, So I made her travel – just for a few moments - into a Fairie forest, so she can conveniently age 7 years (=280 xp). She is now 19 years past Gauntlet and has spent about the same number of xp any other magus her age has spent.

Marie Noris filia Amelie, ex Tytalus (right after Apprenticeship)
Characteristics: Int 2, Per 1, Str -3, Sta 2, Pre 0, Com 0, Dex 0, Qik 3
Size: 0
Age: 42 (apparent age: 39)
Decrepitude: 0
Warping Score: 1(0)
Confidence Score: 2(5)
Virtues and Flaws: The Gift; Hermetic Maga; Flawless Magic, Major Magical Focus (Telekinesis); Affinity with finesse, Affinity with Rego, Cautious sorcerer, Minor Magical focus Certamen, Puissant Finesse, Puissant Rego, *self-confident, Subtle Magic; Greater Malediction: No hands, Major Driven (Getting her Hands back); Ability Block Martial, clumsy, mentor, optimistic
Personality Traits: crafty +3, self-reliant +2, brave+2
Reputations: -

Weapon/Attack Init Atk Dfn Dam
Kick* +2 +1 +2 -1

  • three extra botch dice (untrained)
    Soak: +2
    Fatigue Levels: OK, 0, -1, -3, -5, Unconscious
    Wound Penalties: -1 (1-5), -3 (6-10), -5 (11-15), Incapacitated (16-20), Dead (21+)
    Abilities: Arabic (Warriors) 2, Area Lore France (St. James Way) 1, Area Lore Catalonia (Cities) 1, Area Lore Central Germany (geography) 1, Area Lore Granada (nobility) 1, Area Lore Nuremberg (hiding places) 1, Artes Liberales (Astronmy) 2 [Latin, Arabic Alphabet], Athletics 1 (running)
    Awareness (alertness) 1, Bargain (old men) 2, Charming (Merchants) 1, Code of Hermes (Fairies) 2, Concentration (sounds) 2, Etiquette (merchants) 2, Fairie Lore (deals) 2, Finesse (telekinesis) 5 +2, Folk Ken (townsfolk) 2, German (Franconian) 5, Guile (discover lies) 2, Latin (Hermetic) 4(5), Leadership (Grogs) 1, Magic Theory (Rego) 5(17), Occitan (Catalan) 3, Order of Hermes Lore (Merinita) 1(1), Parma Magica (Mentem) 5, Penetration (Rego) 2, Profession Scribe (carefully) 2, Stealth (sneaking) 1, Survival (urban) 1
    Arts: Cr 10(5), In 6, Mu 6, Pe 6, Re 17(1)+3, An 6, Aq 1, Au 1, Co 6, He 6, Ig 6, Im 6, Me 7, Te 6, Vi 7
    Twilight Scars: -
    Equipment: Wizard's robes, belt with pouches and knife
    Glove of Vigor, activated by wearing and touching the other person's brow, usually given to the least competent grog.
    Vis: 60pvf (15pvf carried: 5 terram, 6 corpus, 2 Imagonem, 2 Mentem, 1 Ignem, 45 in lab), 26 pvt (10 pvt carried: 2 Rego, 2 Creo, 2 Intellego, 2 Muto, 2 Perdo; 16pvt in Lab)
    Encumbrance: 0 (0)
    Spells Known (Mastery included in casting totals):
    • The Earth split asunder (ReTe 30) +35, Mastery 1: Multiple Casting
    • Disguise of the Transformed Image (MuIm 15) +20, Mastery 1: Quiet Casting
    • Leap of homecoming (ReCo35) +35, Mastery 1: fast casting
    • The Unseen porter (ReTe10) +41, Mastery 1: Quiet Casting
    • The treacherous Weapon: ReTe(He) +41, Mastery 1: Multiple Casting;
    • Vision of Heat's Light (InIg20) +20, Mastery 1: Penetration
    • Unseen Arm (ReTe5) +41, Mastery 1: Multiple Casting
    • Wizard's Sidestep (ReIm10) +35, Mastery 1: Fast Casting
    • Call to Slumber (ReMe10) +36, Mastery 1: Penetration
    • Ward against demons (ReVi 30) +36, Mastery 1: fast casting.
    • Aura of Rightful Authority (ReMe20) +36, Mastery 1: fast casting
    • Veil of Invisibility (PeIm20) +20, Mastery 1: Quiet
    • Watching Ward (ReVi35) +36, Mastery 1: Quiet Casting
    • Transported by God's Hand (ReCo(Im)20), +35, Mastery 1: multiple targets.

Lab texts for longevity potion (31: -7, Mag Theory 5)
Lab text for Glove of Vigor (Magic Theory 6), Gift of Vigor (ReMe20), unlimited uses, level: 30.
Certamen school: Provocator

Sigil: unseen hands seem to be involved

New spells:

  • The treacherous Weapon, ReTe(He)35, (like "The Treacherous Spear (ReHe25), but also for metal weapons, +2 magnitudes because of metal)
  • Transported by God's Hand (ReCo(Im)20)
    R: Voice D: Con. T: Ind.
    The target (up to size 1) feels like it is gently taken by two invisible hands at the waist and moved about slowly in any direction the caster wants (like rising smoke). This allows the caster to fly, or to grab somebody, lift him and drop him somewhere (a Finesse of 9+ roll is required to drop the target onto something or somebody, modified by the size of the size of the object or person you want to hit. Damage for the person moved and the person she gets dropped onto is falling damage.

Short Description and Background:
Marie Noris loses her hands in a fairie deal when she is 9 years old in the Maddenhofen Woods, thereby freeing her Mistress from a cruel fairy curse. Mistress Amelie, gratefully takes up the challenge of teaching a seemingly useless apprentice. Because of Marie's special situation, she must use magic all the time, which makes her an expert in Rego, finesse, and lead to nearly botch-free style of magic.
She joins the knights of Seneca, because her mistress had a vision that hinted that Marie's fighting together with the "Knights of Seneca" might eventually lead to restoring her hands. She sets up a lab and Andorra, and travels Iberia. On her travels she enters a fairie Regio where time runs differently. She gets out as soon as she can, but not without aging 7 years when she comes back into the mortal world.

Creation details:
Early childhood (first 5 years):
Little Marie realizes early that her brother is more popular than she is. She starts to invent stories about her brother and recounts his misdeeds to her parents gleefully, but everyone still prefers him, rather than the tooth-gapped little telltale.
Native Language German (Franconian) 5
Athletics 1 (running)
Guile 2 (discover lies)
Folk Ken 2 (townsfolk)
Survival (urban) 1
Awareness (alertness) 1
Stealth (sneaking) 1

Childhood: Nuremberg shopkeeper/trader family
Year 6, winter: She capers through the city (5 practice xp). Area Lore Nuremberg (hiding places) 1
Year 6, spring: A neighbour complains. Her mother thinks it best to teach (11xp) her some Etiquette (merchants) 1(6). Marie loves to spend so much time with her mum and tries to be on her best behaviour.
Year 6, summer and Fall: Her mother keeps a close eye on her and her behaviour (4 xp exposure). Marie is bored. Etiquette 2

Year 7, winter: Mary wants to work like the grown-ups so she becomes even more useful, and gets more of her mother's attention. So she spends a lot of time in her parents' shop trying to be charming to the customers (practice: 5xp). Charming (Merchants) 1. The customers do not always react as favourably as she hoped, but they almost treat her like any other person, which is at least something.
Year 7, spring and summer: Mary spends her time in the shop, observing how her mother Bargains (4 xp exposure), flirting with the old men at the same time. Bargain (old men) 0(4)
Year 7, fall: Marie's father, seeing her interest in trading, teaches her for a season (11xp).
Bargain (old men) 2.

Year 8, winter: An incredibly beautiful and regal woman enters the shop. She surely is an Angel of the Lord, because she orders Marie's parents to send their girl to a nunnery with her. They accept! Marie is happy to become a nun. They walk to the nunnery together (5 xp area lore exposure): The angel says it is far away and that she has to disguise herself as a normal woman: Area Lore Central Germany (geography) 1.
8, spring: Marie finds out: The angel isn't an angel, but a maga! But still, her Mistress is beautiful and can teach her mighty magic. She also says that magic is not of the Devil and she spends a full season with Marie introducing her to the 15 Arts of Magic. Her way of teaching is often hard, sometimes even cruel, but Marie loves it anyway, because she idolizes her Mistress.
8, summer: Mistress Amelie has important business to do, so she hands Marie to a hired teacher, Ali the Arabian, who teaches her the basics of the Academic Canon, including the Latin and the Arabic Alphabet (15xp), with a special focus on Astronomy. Artes Liberales (Astronmy) 2. Mary likes the strange way he smells (he washes himself daily!).
8, Fall: Amelie sets an "easy" task for Marie. She gives her a list of new words every day, which she must learn. She gets one word on the first day, two words on the second day, three words on the third day, and so on. Each evening, she must repeat the words to her mistress and gets her food only if she knows them all: After one season, Marie knows over 4000 Latin words (pracice 5xp). She knows Latin (Hermetic) 1.

Year 9, winter: Ali teaches Marie some more Latin (15xp). The grammar he teaches is very useful for forming sentences. Latin (Hermetic) 2(5). Marie is forbidden to speak German.
Year 9, spring: Marie practices speaking Latin (8xp) with the more educated people at Fengheld. It is rather frustrating to be unable to communicate correctly, and she feels she's not making any progress. 2(13)
Year 9, summer: Amelie knows she has to teach a season herself, so she teaches her apprentice some more Latin (11xp). Marie enjoys the proximity of her Mistress and learns eagerly. Latin 3(10).
Year 9, fall: Mistress Amelie travels into the Maddenhofen Woods with her apprentice to collect fairie Vis there. Her arrogance ends with the Fairie Queen turning Amelie into a woodlouse. But the Queen is (or pretends to be) moved by the tears of the innocent apprentice and asks why she cries for a mistress so obviously worthless. Marie answers: "Amelie steered my hand in my magic training and without her it's no use!" The fairy queen returns Amelie to her human form, but obviously Amelie of Tytalus still thinks she is a woodlouse because she just holds Marie's hand and eats a handful of dry leaves. So Marie protests again: "I want her back the way she was, whole in body and mind. She's just holding my hand – it's no use!" When she says this, the fairy queen smiles and says: "Deal!" Amelie is restored, but much to Marie's horror, both of her hands fall off.
Amelie and Marie flee the woods. It turns out that normal spells can't heal Marie's hands In a vision it is revealed to Amelie that only if Marie fights along the "Knights of Seneca", she will ever have a chance of getting her hands restored. Neither Amelie nor Marie know what Marie has to find or do, but Amelie thinks it a challenge to keep teaching Marie despite her disability (Amelie is also very impressed with Marie's sacrificing both her hands for saving her although she would never admit it – she doesn't know that Marie's sacrifice was based on a misunderstanding). Marie learns a lot about fairies from this adventure (15xp): Fairie Lore (deals) 2.

Year 10, winter: Marie needs some Magic theory so she can move things around. Amelie teaches her. Magic Theory (Rego) 1(6)
Year 10, spring: After some thinking, Amelie decides to send Marie to the library so she can learn some magic that helps her moving things and turning pages (Amelie does not allow a grog to help Marie who becomes incredibly filthy and has to eat like a pig), Amelie is motivated to learn Rego fast and she as a good summa to read (L16 Q15; 15x1,5xp=23xp). Rego 6(2) +3. Using spontaneous magic, Marie can now move around things, but it is very exhausting.
Year 10, summer: Mistress Amelie teaches Marie how to copy books, so she can learn how to write without hands (11xp). Profession Scribe (carefully) 1(6)
Year 10, fall: Marie has to copy books for Amelie. The handwriting in the summer seaon is lousy, resulting in poor quality copy that Amelie sends to Durenmar's Great Library. (exposure 2xpx1,5=3xp). Finesse (Telekinesis) 0(3) +2

Year 11, winter: Mistress Amelie teaches Marie the more Magic Theory, using Marie's experience with Rego (11xp). Magic Theory (Rego) 2(7).
Year 11, spring and summer: More scribing for poor Marie (4xpx1.5=6xp). Finesse 1(4)
Year 11, fall: Marie wants to be able to use tools again. So she devours a Herbam summa (L6 Q21): Herbam 6. She succeeds reading it – and within a magic aura - even manages to use tools without exhausting herself!

Year 12, winter: Another tractatus to copy. Marie hates scribing (exposure: 2xpx1,5=3xp)! Finesse (Telekinesis) 1(7)
Year 12, spring: Ali the Arabian is happy about Marie doing all the writing, so he agrees to teaching her some more Latin (15 xp). Latin 4(5).
Year 12, summer: More scribing (2xpx1.5=3xp)! Finesse 2
Year 12 fall: Mistress Amelie refuses to teach Marie this year, pointing out that she had taught an extra season two years ago. Marie likes the library anyway, so she reads in Horst ex Mercere's excellent book on Magic Theory (20xp).

Year 13, winter and spring: Two more seasons of scribing (4 xp exposure). Profession Scribe 2
Year 13, summer: Puberty begins. Marie hates her looks. So she reads a book on Imagonem (21xp): Imagonem 6. She is surprised how difficult the subject is!
Year 13, fall: Mistress Amelie decides to teach some Penetration (11xp) using Certamen. Unsurprisingly, Marie is best at using Rego. Penetration (Rego) 1(6)

Year 14, winter: The cute stable boy has looked at Marie. She reads a book to look more attractive, a Muto summa (21 xp). Muto 6. It doesn't work. She hates him!
Year 14 spring, summer and fall: Mistress Amelie has been accused of Meddling with Fairies by a Quaesitor! She teaches Marie the basics of the Code of Hermes and then they look through the books for a good defense strategy (15 xp teaching/exposure). Code of Hermes (Fairies) 2..

Year 15, Winter and spring: Mistress Amelie and Marie travel to Irencilla where Amelie has to defend against the allegations. Marie has time to explore the covenant until Amelie convinces the Quasitor (exposure and practice: 4+2xp). Order of Hermes Lore (Merinita) 1(1).
Year 15, summer: Because of the success, Marie is allowed to read a summa on earth magic (21xp). Terram 6.
Year 15, fall: Mistress Amelie's teaching score has improved from spending so much time with Marie. This time she teaches the girl more Rego (12xpx1,5=18xp). Rego 8(5)

Year 16, winter and spring: Marie is on writing duty again. This time Amelie casts a daily Imagonem spell to annoy Marie and make sure she stays concentrated. Concentration (spells) 0(4)
Year 16, summer: Amelie teaches more Rego (12xpx1.5=18xp). Amelie is getting better at this than some of the Magi! Rego 10(4) +3.
Year 16, fall: When Amelie realizes that Marie hasn't learned any Vim yet, she makes her read a summa on it (21xp). Vim 6. The book tries to attack Marie, but she can handle it.

Year 17, winter: Amelie sets an other writing task: This time tiny animals distract Marie (exposure 2xp). Concentration (spells) 1(1).
Year 17, spring: Amelie likes teaching Marie all she knows about Rego, and Marie likes learning it, but progress becomes slower. Rego 11(11)
Year 17, summer: For the first time, Marie is allowed to help in the Lab (2xp*1,5=3xp exposure). Rego 12(2).
Year 17, fall: Marie reads a book on Body Magic (21xp). Corpus 6. Now she can throw around people!

Year 18, winter: Marie is glad that her Mistress is gone on some business. She reads a book on Rego (15xpx1,5=23xp). Rego 13(12)+3.
Year 18, spring and summer: Marie must help in the Lab for two seasons (4 xp exposure): Creo 2, Aquam 1.
Year 18: Fall: Mistress Amelie begins teaching spells. Her best Lab total is Aura 5 + Int 2 + Magic Theory 6 + Rego 18 + Terram 14= 45. Marie learns the spells "The Earth split asunder" (ReTe 30, Mastery 1: Multiple Casting) and "Disguise of the Transformed Image" (MuIm 15, Mastery 1: Quiet Casting). It turns out that her Magic is flawless!!!
Year 19, winter: Marie reads in the Rego summa again (15*1,5=23xp)! Rego 14(8)+3
Year 19, spring, summer and fall:
Year 20 winter: Mistress Amelie gets a familiar, so she spends four seaons in the lab, together with Amelie (8 xp Magic theory). Magic theory 4.
Year 20, spring: Marie reads the library summa on Rego – she fully understands it now. Rego 16+3.
Year 20, summer: Mistress Alina has to catch up with the teaching, so she teaches "Leap of homecoming" (ReCo35; quiet casting) and "The Unseen porter" (ReTe10, Mastery, Quiet Casting).
Year 20, fall: Mistress Alina teaches "The treacherous Weapon" (ReTe(He) 35, Mastery 1: Multiple Casting; like "the Treacherous Spear" but also for metal weapons)
Year 21, winter: Marie reads the Intellego summa (21xp). Int 6
Year 21: spring: Marie reads a summa on Ignem (21xp), because she wants to be overall prepared for the Gauntlet.
Year 21, summer and fall: Lab work (4 xp) once more. Marie wants to be left in peace so she can read! Me 0, An 2

Year 22, winter and spring: Scribe duties for Marie (4 xp exposure). Latin 4(9).
Year 22, summer: A last season of teaching before the Gauntlet. Amelie teaches "Vision of Heat's light" (InIg20, Mastery 1: Penetration), Unseen Arm (ReTe5: Mastery 1: Multiple Casting), Wizard's Sidestep (ReIm10: Mastery 1:Fast Casting) and "Call to Slumber" (ReMe10; Mastery 1: Penetration).
Year 22, Fall: As a final lesson, Mistress Amelie teaches (12 xp) how to raise a Parma Magica (Mentem) 1(7).
For her Gauntlet, Marie is told to bring three pawns of Re-vis to Amelie, collected at a covenant site known for its fairie guardian's embarrassing conditions for vis-harvesting. Since Marie fails to brave the fairie task, she magically forges a document with her Mistress' sigil, and takes it to the Mercer House of the covenant, where she withdraws the said amount of vis, stored from last years trip, in Amelie's name, which she presents. Amelie is pleased at Marie's craftiness and hastens to pay back the vis. Her official sigil is a defiant red fist on a green background and her name Marie Noris.

Year 23, winter: The morning after the Gauntlet, Marie is on the road, travelling to Andorra through the snow. She walks along St. James way, stealing from the wealthier pilgrims along the way. Area Lore France (St. James Way) 1.
Year 23, spring and summer: Marie arrives at Andorra and asks for a few rooms to set up a lab. In return, she promises to spend at least three out of the next ten years travelling Iberia to support the Redcaps on the road. She sets up a lab immediately using the funds stolen the season before (4 xp exposure). Magic Theory 4(4)
Year 23, fall: She still has a few deficits, so she decides to study a bit longer before hitting the road. Marie reads "Dominion over God's creatures" from the library. Animal 6.

Year 24 winter and, spring: Marie is so fascinated by the new library that she forgets everything else for a full year: She reads in Bonisagus' "Corpus Hermeticum for two seasons (2x12xp). Magic theory 5(3).
Year 24, summer and fall: She moves on to "Eye of Aggamatto" by Tressa of Tremere, which she reads until she totally understands it. Mentem 7
At the beginning of the year, she receives 6 pvf, for a total of 6 pawns.

Year 25: All year, Marie reads in the "Liberi de creationé" (4x15xp): Cr10(5).
At the beginning of the year, she receives 6 pvf, for a total of 12 pawns.

Year 26, winter: Marie uses a high risk (+3) experiment to invent a Longevity potion (3 pawns of Vim vis). She has a lab total of Creo 10 + Corpus 6 + Magic Theory 5 + Aura 5 + 3 (risk)+ 2 (extra dice) = 31. There are no extraordinary effects, so she puts it on a shelf (-7 on Aging total). (2xp exposure) Magic Theory 5(5).
Year 26, spring: Marie invents the spell: "Transported by God's Hand" ReCo(Im)20 (like Dangling puppet, but all directions are possible). Re19+Co6+Focus6+Aura5+Magic Theory 5+1=42. It only takes one season to invent the spell. (2x1,5xp; Mastery 1: Multiple Casting) Rego 16(3).
Year 26, summer and fall: Before starting to travel Spain, she spends a season each learning Spanish and Arabian from a teacher (source quality: 10).
Spanish (Aragonese) 1(5), Arabian (nobility) 1(5).
At the beginning of the year, she receives 6 pvf, spends 3, for a total of 15 pawns.

Years 27-37: Marie travels Iberia, learns Arabic and Spanish and lives through several adventures, including several certamen, killing a demon and fighting a group of Hedge Magi. But then she enters a fairie regio where time passes differently for just a few moments, but she ages 7 years on leaving it (16 seasons with adventures, 28 without: 100 xp).
Occitan (Catalan) 2(5) 20xp
Arabic (warriors) 1 5xp
Leadership (Grogs) 1 5xp
Area Lore 1 5xp
Area Lore 2 5xp
Parma 3(9) 27xp
Finesse (18x1,5=27xp) 3(12) 18xp
Concentration 2 4xp
Vim 7 7xp
Penetration 2 4xp
She must make three aging rolls before she gets home: 3 ,4, 4 – she succeeds!
She also found some fairie vis in the regio: 4 pvt (she gets vis because she is only 19 years past Gauntlet).
On returning she gets 22pvf and 22pvt, for a total of 37 pvf and 26 pvt.

Year 38, winter, spring and summer: Marie returns and downs her longevity potion. Marie reads all three books on Parma Magica: "The Sorceror's Shield", "Study on the Sorceror's Shield" and "Aegis of the Magus" (36 xp). Parma Magica 3(18).
Year 26, fall: Marie reinvents a spell from the Library "Aura of rightful authority" (ReMe20) and (2xp exposure. Mastery 1: Magic resistance). Magic Theory 5(7).
At the beginning of the year, she receives 6 pvf, for a total of 43pvf and 26 pvt.
Apparent Age: 37, 1 Warping point

Year 39, winter and spring: Marie takes uses a Library Lab-text to invent (2xpx1,5=3xp, 2xp) "Veil of Invisibility" (PeIm20; Mastery 1: quiet) and "Watching Ward" (ReVi35, mastery 1: Quiet casting). Magic Theory 5(9), Rego 16(6). She receives 6 pvf, for a total of 27 pawns.
Year 26, summer and fall: Marie reads "The accurate Eye" and "Form and Finesse" (22xpx1,5=33xp). Finesse 5. She receives 6 pvf, for a total of 18 pawns.
Year 26, summer: Marie reinvents a spell from the Library "Aura of rightful authority" (ReMe20) and (2xp exposure. Mastery 1: Magic resistance). Magic Theory 5(5).
At the beginning of the year, she receives 6 pvf, for a total of 49pvf and 26 pvt.
Apparent Age: 38, 2 Warping points

Year 40, winter: Then, she decides to enchant a Leather Glove (left hand). She spends one season and four pawns of vis to prepare the glove. (2xpx1,5= 3xp rego). Rego16(9)
She receives 6 pvf, spends 4, for a total of 47 pvt, 32 pvt. Apparent age: 29.
Year 40, spring, summer and fall: Marie embeds "Gift of Vigor" (ReCo20) with an unlimited number of uses into the glove (total level: 30). She spends 3 pvf. (3x2x1,5=9xp Rego exposure). Rego 17(1).
At the beginning of the year, she receives 6 pvf, spends 7, for a total of 48pvf and 26 pvt.
Apparent Age: 38, 3 Warping points

Year 41: Marie invents a new spell: "Ward against demons" (ReVi30, Mastery 1: fast casting) (4x2xp). Magic Theory 5(17).
At the beginning of the year, she receives 6 pvf, for a total of 54pvf and 26 pvt.
Apparent Age: 38, 4 Warping points

Year 42: Saga begins
At the beginning of the year, she receives 6 pvf, for a total of 60pvf and 26 pvt.
Apparent Age: 39 5 Warping pointsWarping Score 1(0)

You get 10 + (4 x years short of 20). This includes all your sources, unless you have a virtue. You can vis extract as a lab activity and spend your starting vis on starting enchantments (LP's, items, familiars, etc).

The aura covers the plateau, and the castle lays over the whole thing. If you want supernatural wilderness, you need to go to the next valley over.


According to our charter, the whole of this tiny principality is our juristiction.

Let me read it tonight, I will speak tomorrow.

She'd have to extend Parma over the familiar to protect it, and at a -3 that's not worth the trouble, especially since the Form bonus applies only to the maga herself. However, the butterfly has Magic Might of 10.

BTW, I still can't edit posts.


Well all wilderness is in some way supernatural. Doesn't have to have a magic or faerie aura for that. There is always a genus loci in pure uninhabited wilderness (even sparsley populated so long as the inhabitants are pagans or revere the land.) so I should think anything off the plateau or in the higher slopes is considered wilderness.

I'm concerned about this because no one else is using Extremely Complex Character Creation for apprenticeship--and it makes a huge difference.

If you really want to do this, there need to be strict guideliness, because apprentices do [i]not[/i/ spend most of aprenticeship actively learning: as I mentioned before, they get 16 XP's and 8 spell levels per year under the standard rules (I gave my character an extra 45 XP's, but that was in the process of greatly cutting down her total XP's in a conversion from 5th to 4th). Even with strict guidelines, I would only be really comfortable with the Extremely Complex method if we all used it--and my character, with Book Learner and Study Bonus, would come out really well under it.

Under the guidelines Mark gave us, she can certainly get more than 10 XP's a season, either from an Adventure worth 15 XP's, or, in this case, by taking advantage of her Affinities. However, the average is probably going to be close to 10, because some seasons she'll get only Exposure, or a 5 XP Adventure.

OK, you're already picking up a good bit more than the other characters here, since everyone else gets 15 XP's per year for this period.

An apprentice doesn't spend four seasons a year learning--more like two (and that first season with the Area Lore is Practice, not Exposure).

It probably doesn't matter much for doing 30 or 40 years of character development, but technically you can only put a maximum of 5 XP's from a single Adventure into a single Ability or Art.

This is the first Exposure season, in the 12th season of apprenticeship. She should have had 6 Exposure seasons by this point.

The Code is very strict about one season per year of direct instruction--you can't get out of it even if it would be better to let the student learnin the library.

BTW, how are you possibly getting book study totals of 20 and 21? Mark said to assume a Quality of 10 in most cases, which would give you 10 XP's.

Here's one case you might realistically do a little better: if her mistress doesn't actually need Amelie's contribution to the Lab Total, you could get Training here instead of Exposure. But you couldn't assume that every season.


Here's how I've handled vis for Viola:


At the beginning of 1208, Viola had no personal vis. From 1208 to 1219, she got 44 pawns of vis (one per season), and used 19 for enchantments and a vis sacrifice for a mystery initiation. She used 17 more for enchantments for the covenant, including the quill, though she ended up taking the quill with her when she left the covenant, so let’s include the 15 for the quill in her usage total, making 36. (I’m assuming that the one pawn a season is all “savings”—that is, it doesn’t include vis that had to be spent during adventures.) That leaves her with eight pawns at the moment, distributed as follows:

Muto: 3 pawns

Animal: 2 pawns
Imaginem: 1 pawn
Vim: 2 pawns

Mark, is this the right way to do it?


I imagine the study totals are coming from time spent at Andorra, which has a number of books of Q19+. Realistic use of Andorra’s library messes with the 40xp/year thing a tad, although it’s still fairly close.

I went crazy and did some math. 8) I’m not trying to attack or criticize, but this did jump out at me and I wanted to know how it all worked.
Cliff’s Notes: Exp actually looks OK, but spells seem to be a big problem area. Verisimilitude of some of the things done is disconcerting to my inner storyteller, but not a huge problem mechanically. What exactly does "telekinesis" cover?

I agree, doing extremely complex generation pre-apprenticeship makes me uneasy at first as well, especially as Mark and others already remarked that we’re doing by-the-book generation up to Gauntlet. I don’t mean to be the rainer-on of parades (or the person to make you do everything over!), so let’s check some accounting – your faerie regio quickfix may indeed have turned the trick, at least in terms of the math.

By my very rough count, Marie has:
618 exp in abilities
461 exp in arts

She also has 295 levels of spells. However, as we’ve observed, the lab totals of older magi make measuring this in experience points very difficult, so I won’t include it right now.

Based on averages, she should have:
125 Early Childhood (Including language 5)
Later Life: Muddied somewhat because she was taken at age 7.5; this would, I suppose, be 37.5 exp.
Apprenticeship: 240 exp (and 120 levels of spells, but I’m counting those separately)
Years Post Gauntlet: I think she’s seventeen years post gauntlet, but I’m a little confused about what all happened in the faerie regio. Did she have adventures there?
Assuming 17 years PG: 680

Total: 1082.5

So in terms of raw EXP, Marie is pretty much on par with her peers 17 years post Gauntlet under Mark’s advancement. I do, however, worry about spells. As compared with her Hermetic peers, she’d have had to have learned 175 levels of spells over her 17 years, which strikes me as somewhat difficult to do with only lab texts and invention available. I imagine this came from the very generous rules for one-on-one teaching of spells. That’s my biggest (and almost only) issue. I’m not quite done with Inigo, but he was fairly serious about learning spells in his time at Andorra and I don’t think he got near that close – and that’s using mostly lab totals within his Focus!

Also, what precisely does “telekinesis” cover? If your argument is that it covers both teleportation and general movement with Rego, it seems much too large to be minor – it appears to be the case, as I don’t see how else she could have had a ReCo lab total of 35 two years before her gauntlet to have learned it from her teacher.

Actually, many of the spells have levels that seem much too high for her lab total at the time. For example: her learning Earth Split Asunder in year 17. By my count, her ReTe lab total at that time was Re13+Te6+Int2+MT3+Specialization1=25. Alas, too low. And this is with her MT inflated from getting to read from Andorra’s library as an apprentice. Other times that look fishy are ReTe(He) 35 in year 20, and InIg20 in year 22 (especially since her InIg lab total 17 years post Gauntlet looks about 18 or 19!). I’m guessing maybe you forgot this rule and just went bananas?

She also has a few verisimilitude issues that rub me the wrong way, but I’m crazy and those are no big.

I don’t mean to attack anyone, nitpick, or debate, but I felt I had to throw in my comments since the generation of this character is so unorthodox. I’d actually be OK with this if her spells were brought into line, and I’d be thrilled if some of the study was a bit more realistic (but still perfectly happy if just the first was done).

Addendum (alas, still no edit function). Vis looks a troublesome as well. She apparently has 86 pawns, the aforementioned large fraction of a queen that I was worrying over earlier today. Based on Mark’s clarification, she should have 10 + (3x4)=22.

I can't seem to find Mark's clarfication. What does it say? And shouldn't she have used up some vis along the way, or did she not enchant anything?


okay, I am editing marie so she fits your standards.
She will be even better that way!!!

I have to read the latest ruling on vis.

I was concerned because the covenant write-up says that members get 3 pawns of technique vis or the equivalent in form vis (2 to 1) per year. However, the write-up in the “Looking for Players” forum says we get 10 pawns of vis, plus four for every year short of 20. It wasn’t clear if these “stacked” or not, or if one superceded the other. Key quote:

So vis just from living at Andorra (or for killing monsters, or going on vis hunts, or whatever) is included in the 10 + (4 x years short of 20), not in addition to it. You get the 10 + (4 x years short of 20) pawns “free”, just for being you, and anything on top of that you have to extract yourself.

Although I’ve just commented on the stuff that jumped out at me, so maybe I’m not qualified to say, I imagine she almost certainly would have used some of that 22 pawns up.

Awesome, although I’m not the one you have to impress :wink:. On further thought, I think the issues with the spells are twofold:

  1. It looks like you forgot the rule where your lab total limits the level of spell you can learn. Hey, fine, we all make mistakes.
  2. Learning numerous spells in one season. This is stickier. If a post-Gauntlet magus wants to learn a fairly powerful spell that’s outside his bailiwick (that he can just barely cast in the field) his best bet is to find a lab text for it. He then has to give up a valuable season of study just to learn it. Under the spell teaching rule, there is no such restriction, so if you use it to learn several powerful spells that are outside your area of specialization (Invisibility, Treacherous Weapon given your low Herbam, Vision of Heat’s Light, etc) you effectively “save” seasons, making you “older” than you seem. I suppose it ultimately falls to Mark to resolve that.

Ah well. I think it’s my bedtime.

Hmm. I realized I forgot to include Aura in my eyeballed lab total tabulations, which might do it for some of 'em, although I'd still inspect and review how exactly those spells were learned.

OK, now I'm really going to bed, I promise.

Ken and others with Wilderness Lore: You can’t use the castle or plateau as a source for study, vis, or magical critters. However, you can bring magic wild creatures into the castle and stuff. Be wary of their accidentally becoming domesticated though! And if hey remain “wild” then their will be natural consequences of course. If the magic wolf (or wolf attracted from a magic hill) piddles on your sanctum floor, well, what else did you expect?

The ageing thing is cool. Just to make sure, you spent 7 years in the faerie region while to observers you stepped out mere moments after you went in. You basically adventured for seven years straight.

Only Tremere magi can take a Minor Magic Focus in Certamen. I myself think it gyps them. I would rather eliminate this as a Magic Focus, and relegate similar effects to a Certamen School that only Tremere may learn (as a minor virtue). But that is just me. We have bent too many rules already :wink: Oh, and you can only have one magic Focus to begin with, and you would rather have Telekinesis.

I just noticed, you have two Major Hermetic Virtues. Was one gained later? As a note for all, put V&Fs gained in development on a separate line.

I am not understanding where all of your vis comes from. From my figuring, no one should have more than 50 unless they have the Hidden Vis Source Virtue, which yields 4 pawns of the specified art(s) every year. And I don’t see that as one of your virtues. You don’t count the Vis Grant Boon yet. That is supposed to explain (in part) where the vis came from in the first place.

Note to all: the total vis amount of (10 + (4 x number years of development short of 20) represents everything, the number of pawns you have in your pocket, the amount you invested in your talisman, the amount you received as profit from a trade or an adventure, the amount left over after spending that rooks on Penetration that one day and studying a bunch in a season, everything. In play, VT & VF matters. But in development it doesn’t much matter I figure.

I am not a good accountant type person, so I hope someone else can bean count :laughing: Still, I did not mean for you to have to account for every season of your apprenticeship. If it all adds up to what’s proper, I am cool.

I like the magic glove :smiley:

I keep wanting to call you Wirth! Anyway, everything looks good so far. You have some wards, so we should talk more on wards. I should mention two things.
First, Wards work in one direction only, to keep the subject away from the target. For the Circular Ward against Demons, the Demons are not the Target, the Circle is. You can’t trap a demon with such a circle, you need an entirely different spell. The different spell can also be a circle, but it won’t keep demons out.
Second, not to nix Xavi, but I like personal wards (such as you have). But, Xavi has a point in that you shouldn’t be able to jump into a fray swinging and be immune to weapons. You break your ward once you begin doing that. Same goes for other wards. Say you have a Ward against Animals, and you go to wrestle a bear, your ward is broken.

What do you think of the mixed wards idea? I figure that ritual wards can be pretty powerful, and you guys have plenty of vis to go around :wink:

Going over your guy closer, I wonder what the angle on the elf blood is about. I mean, go ahead and keep it if you want. It just seems odd.