Table Talk - Development

He solved that problem by having all the initiations take place during character creation.

Not quite, Fixer is correct, I discussed learning a few during advancement.

And Fixer, Marko actually laid everything out in the House Rules Section

So it's very expensive to gain new Virtues during advancement, but completely doable. There's a reason Thomas' Cult Lore is at a 4.

Now to just work out what exactly the cult is...

Unfortunately it doesn't quite say what that trivial sum would be to preserve it (at least not that I see). Isn't there a spell to transport a lab? Was just thinking, worse comes to worse, find the cost of that and pay it + a tip to the Magi who cast it for you.

Ok, I thought you wanted to self-initiate during the game. This is a different beast.

Arf... Can't search now, gotta go.
The spell, IIRC, teh Ambulatory Laboratory. I believe it to be in Covenants, but check if there's an errata.

There is errata on the Ambulatory laboratory.

In addition to the high level, the spell also has some significant finesse requirements, in addition the need for many casting requisites (it's impracticable for most characters). Got liquids in your lab, you need an Aquam casting requisite. Vis? You need Vim, probably. There are almost certainly animal products (wax tablets, parchment) and herbam products (furniture). There are almost certainly corpus products for a necromancer, so add Corpus.

Basically, I determined you need a magus with 10 in all Forms, except Mentem and Imaginem, possibly Auram, and a 20 in Rego to pull it off. Master the spell for ceremonial casting, have a bit of XP in Artes Liberales, Philosophiae, with appropriate specialties for ceremonial casting. So, looking at 7 forms, needing a score of 10, in addition to Rego needing a 20.

Then the Perception +Finesse EF is 9+3xRefinement, add another 3 if Highly Organized, subtract 3 if disorganized, and add 3 if the room where the lab is doesn't match where the lab will be.

The cost of retaining a lab is 25 if I'm reading this post:

Indeed, but 25 what is the question. We're assuming QVPs.

Yes, it's QPVs.

In other words, the Magus who can actually cast this spell would be rich! Or at the very least have an easy way to make money.

More or less. Or he's disinterested in selling his services to other magi. There are logistics considerations, such as being invited into the Aegis where the lab is and where the lab will reside. So that means travel. Now, ReCo 35 is Leap of Homecoming, and if his Arts are Rego 20 Corpus 10, he can probably learn the spell in a season. But it means he's a season older. And we aren't even discussing the seasons needed to invent spells, and do other interesting or necessary stuff. Basically, advance a character to the point where you think he could exist as a viable specialist in the Order, offering this service, then add half again as much time to account for all the other stuff happens in life...

Also depends how common refinement is. Fleur's lab has a refinement of 2 currently, she has the magic theory to get it up to 7.

Sadly, there's very little incentive to work on raising the refinement score too much.

Try putting your lab in a hold on a ship. Then there's tons of incentive.

I would say refinement is generally quite useful. It's just a very significant time sink. And time is a pecious comodity...

Hm...I wonder if you could get someone like an assistant to help reorganise the lab properly?

Which brings me to a question- if at some point in the future Fleur were to hire a sculptor to make a statue (of a nude naturally) for her lab, and hired an appropriately skilled artist as per arts and academe, how often would she be able (assuming she got some craft experience during the instillation, such as requiring the artist to treat her as an apprentice) to study the artwork as a source of ability development? If she got someone able to sign their work (artistic reputation 8), they would cost 8 pounds per season to sponsor them, and they can presumedly create art with an aesthetic quality of 24, which means SQ 12, in 3 seasons. Would this be treated as a tractus (only usable once?) A summae (usable up to 1/2 the artist ability), as realia (may be studied a number of times equal to quality) or some other method? Once she discovers fertility lore she will probably want to develop a craft ability...

I would assume it would be a realia of Quality 1, since it's a collection of a single item.

Its generally not worth a magus's time beyond getting enough safety to experiment safely. Not killing yourself is a huge boon to original research. It IS however worth a random kid in the village's time who got all his magic theory experience by training from a magus since setting up a laboratory does not actually require the Gift. Nor does training eat up any time either for the trainer. By the economic principal of comparative advantage all lab set up should be done by unGifted people. Tada! Luckily this is the middle ages and comparative advantage doesn't exist yet.

On the art question: It doesn't actually say. It certainly isn't a summae. No level gain limit. I always assumed tractus, but that's sort of silly because you can spend as much time studying a small box as you can studying a large cathedral. So, I'm going to wave my hands and run away instead after pointing at Marco and yelling "His job!"

Hi there folks, I'm very interested in joining the saga and Marko's given blessing to introduce myself.

I've more than a few Magus concepts dreamed up over the years as npcs and was interested in using one, but I am also very keen to work out a way to integrate within the saga's stories and framework (yes, I'm reading the forum heavily at present).

So before I go digging - Are there any opportunities that spring to mind which I could include when designing a new character?

My preference would be to play a younger Magus, although an apprentice would be interesting as I've never played at that level in a long story. My particular likes as a player are pondering new spells, a background almost devoid of historical accuracy and laden with film and fictional lore, and a love of "story trumps mechanics every time".
cheers and regards,

Customizing the lab is a challenging issue, and it's simply not cut and dried to say that there is little incentive to raise the refinement. Remember, Refinement also governs how many virtues you have installed in a lab. If you want a lot of virtues, and few flaws, Refinement is probably the primary method of gaining space for virtues, unless you ridiculously large labs, physically. I don't recall what Andorra's standard lab size is, +1 is my recollection, but even presuming it is +2, that doesn't leave a lot of room for a tricked out lab. Young magi don't need tricked out labs, as they can usually realize the same improvements in a season by just studying a sound tractatus or summa. When Art scores get to the 20s, though, refinement and improving ones lab begin to pay bigger dividends than spending a couple of seasons grinding on tractatus. If you play the long game, and spend a season out of every dozen or so improving your lab early in the magus's career, it's not very painful to advancement, and you have a tricked out lab, and decent Art Scores. Looking at it another way, improving ones lab, including Refinement, is a capital improvement, and takes time to pay dividends. One of the most useful things about Refinement is to scrub out Flaws that you took when installing a virtue, because you just had to have it.

What? Who? Me?

Use the statue as the beginnings of a Feature/Focus object, or perhaps a Specimen.
The cost for moving/building a lab is in quarter-pawns (qp). It may be too cheep. I based it on Build Points originally, then did something I forget. Vocis (Fight Master) was one of the few (or only) to use them, and we both made errors. So I revised it to make his lab legal. The situation at hand reveals it may need to be revised again.
Refinement is always a good thing.