Table Talk - Development

Who handles the grog advancement? I mean we have some grogs that are 'owned' and some that are loose, and the only place their character sheets seem to be taken care of is on the wikki...

I know that in games I GM I handle advancement of grogs seasonally and any that are not claimed and advanced by a player I handle myself...

Okay, so here’s the modified version of the spell Solomon was trying to invent through experimentation. Providing the numbers of Gifted within the Boundary should work using the In(form) guidelines from TMRE pg 93 (thanks Ironboundtome!). Providing the distance and bearing from the Arcane Connection seems to me to be something that should be possible with a spell of this power level. Basically I added a +1 magnitude for the counting aspect, and a +1 magnitude for the distance and bearing. Does that seem fair?

Gifted Among the Masses
InVi 65 Ritual
R: Arcane Connection, D: Concentration, T: Boundary
Invented by Solomon of Guernicus, this ritual allows the magus to detect Gifted individuals within a bounded area (typically a city, village, or town) that he has an arcane connection to. The magus learns the number of Gifted individuals within the boundary, as well as their approximate location in relation to the arcane connection (for example, 1 Gifted individual 200 feet northwest of the arcane connection).

The ritual was designed to be used in conjunction with a more precise means of detection (for example Sight of the Lazy Parens) once the Gifted population and general locations have been identified. In order to ensure no violation of the Code, it is highly recommended to cast this spell with no penetration.
(Base 10, +4 AC, +1 Conc, +4 Boundary, +2 Details)

It occurs to me that given that it only provides a head count and no personal information even with penetration it might not be a violation of the code, depending on tribunal...


Bumping duration to sun is easy. Maybe too easy. You could do "potency" so that it instead gives more info, not unlike "sight of the active magics"

Biggest problem IMO is that this would count as Scrying for any mage in the aera :-/

But what worries me is the 2 modified effects. They might screw that spell for your purposes.
For example:

  • 1st modified effect: It detects something else, such as magical traces.
  • 2nd modified effect: changes the realm, so it detect infernal traces.
  • Increased Potency: It tells you either the Form of the effect, or its Power (and in infernal Method and Powers)

So you could find yourself with a spell that tells you "There was a Malediction effect cast in that city during the last month". Useful, sure, but quite different from what you started with.

Alas, it uses an AC to the person, so it detects the whole from the part. This isn't the same thing

The Cerebro spell just uses an AC to the Boundary, it has no AC to the persons. No part from which to follow the whole. So, IMO, it'd need 1 extra magnitude for this.
Compare this to the Room target DEO: it just blanket targets any demon in the room, even if you don't know where it is, nor does it provide you any information on their location.

Although, IMO, if, while under the spell's effect, he happened to be in presence of a suitable target covered by the casting, he'd know it, not unlike this. So once he's located gifted people in a city, wandering the streets would allow him to find them relatively quickly.

Anyway, given period maps, this point is just moot :wink:
"Yeah, there's one in the jewish quarter, sure"

Yeah, totally :smiley:


We do not belong to any tribunal!
So this opens another can of worms, but it makes the issue murkier, for sure!

Can a T: boundary effect be cast with R: Arc? I don't have my book, but boundary has something in the text saying it must be walked when the spell is cast? Or does R:Arc make that moot?

The saga house rules for Advancement says 20 xp per year considered in abstract.

I don't know. I've always advanced the grogs I play myself and didn't worry about the others. And [strike]I think[/strike] I'm ready to take over my grogs and start playing/advancing them again. I thought I was ready to let my babies go, but...:cry:

keep in mind that Epona know has a magical knife/sword that switches between the two states on command but is life linked to her- if she dies it stops working, so training in single weapon might be a good idea. Let me know if she wants to leave Fleur's sanctum...

Nope, that's Ring/Circle Target.

It's a common misconception that T:Boundary spells need to be walked, because of the Aegis of the Hearth description.

Would anyone be willing to teach Guiverna an/or Semsuhfaw Teaching in 1241?

Again, it would require working in an off season. But you might be able to convince Bashir to do it.

Also, FYI, Lucas knows Voice of the Bjornear Magus...

Would Bashir be willing to teach both Guiverna and Semsuhfaw?

Would he be willing to teach it to her? Perhaps she can do something for him (not sure what, but...). Doesn't have to be that particular season, either. Just whenever they can work it into their schedules.

Damn non-Bjornaer stealing our secrets. Now I have to kill Lucas and Guiverna for possessing secret knowledge... :imp:

I can't see why not. He's not particularly jumpy around snakes. And he's seen enough familiars to know that they're generally pretty well behaved - or at least don't randomly kill people their masters like.

Well, if he taught that spell, he'd teach her a whole lot more than that. No reason to waste the rest of his potential teaching ability. He could get a 52 CrCo LT. So long as he taught her Bind Wound, that would still leave 25 extra levels of spells to teach. It wouldn't be hard to pick a level 10 and a level 15 spell for her to learn.

Of course, he could write 80 levels of laboratory texts in a season (100 if the hermetic specialty applies - not sure). Then Guiverna could learn from those (and the library would have them). But then Guiverna would be limited to only learning MuAn spells, and would also be limited by her MuAn LT.

The real question is what would Lucas want for a season of effort? I'm not sure. Guiverna is only a +5 assisting in the lab. Still, once Lucas has Elena trained and assisting, that would let him get to a LT of 61 for rebinding Horus, which is a nice break point. (That would be sometime in 1242, probably.)

The other issue is timing. What with all this getting ready for an apprentice, learning spells and making items for the covenant, and performing my duties as an assistant officer and a member of House Mercere, I'm running out of seasons to spare through 1241.

No worries if Lucas doesn't have time for it. If he does, let me know when and I'll shuffle her schedule around.

Two questions that I think I know the answers to, but could use confirmation or refutation.

  1. If an item is enchanted with Moon duration and Environmental Trigger: Full Moon, can it still have a trigger, as well? (such as running the finger along the length and saying "Preserve the body for the ba.") (I'm thinking yes.)

2.If an item is enchanted as a Lesser Enchantment, can the maga then attune it as a Talisman, or does it have to actually be opened as an item? (I'm thinking no.)

Agree to both.

  1. I believe an environmental trigger is an addition option to the normal triggering action which can be specified for each power in an enchanted device.
  2. Because a Lesser Enchanted Device opens the device and also invests powers at once permanently it is in contradiction to a talisman which can be opened for additional effects season by season, and has a different upper limit on the maximum vis allowed.

No, you cannot take a lesser enchanted device and make it your talisman. The only magical devices that can be attuned as a talisman are those you have personally prepared for enchantment yourself.

Lesser devices, before they're enchanted, are not prepared for enchantment - there's no need to do so, and that's why they're good: saves on time and vis if you can handle the enchantment you need in a single season.

So by definition, talismans (which need to be prepared for enchantment by you) must be invested items; because opening an item for enchantment is what makes it an invested item in the first place.

Okay, one more time :slight_smile:. I’m trying to get this nailed down, as I can’t figure out the rest of Solomon’s downtime until I figure this out and determine whether I will need to invent this spell again. So first, here is the spell Solomon was attempting to invent:

Not having heard any dissenting opinions, and getting positive feedback from Fixer, I’m going to assume it is a good/proper spell design, and if invented normally would do what it is designed to do.

However, I decided to try out the experimentation rules, and things didn’t work out as planned. As mentioned before, here are the results I got for two seasons of experimentation.

What I need help from the troupe figuring out is what those two middle results (The actual effect of your experiment is modified x2) entail. The only guidance from the rules is an example of the spell Curse of Circe with this effect that changes the target into a goat, vice a cow. So it still has the effect of transforming the target, just in a different way.

Note, this is different than completely changing the spell’s purpose while keeping within the TeFo. That’s a completely different result on the table. There have been a couple of folks who presented recommendations:

As much as I hate to admit it (because it will mean a few more seasons of work), I tend to agree with the direction Fixer (and Ironboundtome with (f)) are going.

So the first thing is to identify what the spell is meant to do; in this case Detect/Locate persons with the Gift. If we keep the Detect/Locate portion of the spell (which I think fits with the book example) then what it is locating needs to be changed, yet still somewhat close to the original. So I think one way to go is:

  • 1st Modified Effect: Instead of detecting people with the Gift, it detects people with Supernatural Virtues aligned with the Magic Realm (same realm, similar things, still detecting people)
  • 2nd Modified Effect: Realm switches from Magic to Faerie, so it now detects people with Supernatural Virtues aligned with the Faerie Realm (now same things, different realm, still detecting people)
  • Increased Potency: Identifies what each virtue is in each person OR bump it to Sun duration

Another way to go, based on Fixer’s idea is:

  • 1st Modified Effect: Instead of detecting people with the Gift, it detects traces of magic
  • 2nd Modified Effect: Realm switches from Magic to Infernal, so it now detects traces of the infernal
  • Increased Potency: Includes the form of the effect, or the Power used

One problem with this route is that using scrying magic on the Infernal is at best an iffy proposition. Now, if the Increased Potency effect could be used to violate that lesser limit, I’d be all for this :stuck_out_tongue: This version also takes the spell farther away from its original purpose than the previous example.

Does anyone else have any other ideas, or comments on these?

Someone had once suggested having the spell detect items. That would be very useful to use as a semi-regular security sweep of the covenant.
But that is a major change.

Unfortunately, I'm pretty much out of discretionary time during the leap, especially if I need to squeeze two seasons to swap Masteries with Roberto. I don't think I can drop anything without failing my promise to Arachne to do some research or crafting for the covenant, failing to perform my duties to the covenant and House, or failing to be ready to train my apprentice. Already I've ditched my plans to enchant a talisman.

If you can wait on it until 1242, then I may be able to squeeze things in. But I'm guessing you don't want to wait that long.

That's my problem with Lucas. He's always willing to help people out. It's made a shambles of my personal advancement strategy. :slight_smile: