Table Talk - Development

I am away from my books so I will have to get back to you. I do know that the Nature Lore you pay for as a Virtue is more powerful than the Nature Lore you just pick up from an area (as in GotF). Animals is a unique one, but I can play with it. Mayhaps the information you have is gathered it by bit from your critter friends. Places where there are no animals, you have no knowledge. Combine it with Animal Ken to make it all smooth :slight_smile:

Boxer has a unique idea for a Major Tradition Virtue that I think is pretty cool, bbut I said that the troupe should decide on it. He imagines a amalgamation of three versions of wilderness lore into one abbility covered by a major virtue as his ex-misc tradition abbility. Me, I am not so sticky on categorization. If you think a Major Magic Focus suits your ex-misc vision better than a non-hermetic virtue, I say go for it.

The only issue i see is the cheeper experience point cost, paying for one skill score instead of three. But on the other hand, I want to allow people to learn generic wilderness lore by exposure, like as in GotF. The Pyrenees has lots of little lost nooks and crannies for hidden nature spirits. I can imagine that all of the Provencal (or even Alpine) have a tradition similar to the Rhine magi as far as wilderness mysteries go.

Someone sent me a PM about Companions. What do you guys want to do for companions and grogs? I have been in a lot of games where people just blow C&G's off. The traditional way is to make your magus' companion. In Novus Mane we made companions for each other.

I am open to ideas. It is your game. How do you want to play?

In regards to the disney princess concept, the stories often follow the same general outline:

  1. We are introduced to the princess as she lives in a carefree and blissful ideal world. The hero is usually introduced sometime during this as being attracted to her for not only her looks but her sweet disposition and admirable innocence. In fact most other characters are also drawn to these qualities.

  2. Then tragedy strikes that plunges the girl into a world that she is ill-suited for. The heroes and other characters vow to help her since it pains them to see her idealism drain away. They feel a need to preserve goodness and all that she exemplifies if only because they have suffered hardship.

  3. As things progress and the other characters meet difficult challenges, the princess comes to realize that she has been a burden on others and decides to no longer be the damsel in distress. She becomes empowered to make a difference.

  4. The other characters are inspired by her newfound confidence and manage to defeat the evil doers. The hero and now heroine princess live happily ever after or until the next straight to dvd release.

If you intend to follow that formula, perhaps it would be easier to decide where to place the character along that path. Seeing as she has joined a covenant predominantly composed of Flambeau would lead me to think she falls into the third phase where she decides to take a stand.

Unless the character is straight out of her apprenticeship, I think it would be difficult to justify a Dark Secret (heiress) flaw unless of course she was still significantly involved in the world she theoretically was supposed to leave after joining the Order of Hermes. Or her family has plans to give her hand in marriage. I don't think the Jerbiton would risk angering local nobility, but a passing mercere could have wooed her with stories and spirited away with her.

On the flip side, time flows differently in the faerie realms. If she were of faerie descent, she might have lived the past years in the mortal world but only a few days have passed in her homeland with a very ticked off fae lord wanting his daughter back. The dark secret would certainly be the danger of the order learning that her master was involved in "molesting the fae" espescially if the faerie lord begins causing trouble for magi as he searches for her. Perhaps he has already begun causing trouble and those that would protect her (consortes, grogs, parens, amicus, etc) have already been dispatched or suffered hardship.

I certainly think the enchanting music virtue would fit in the concept very well as and a virtue that would reduce the penalties of the gift upon social interaction as well as animals.

You stated the tone of the game would be one of adventure for the magi. Furthermore, the write-up on the covenant seems to cover the need for shield grogs and protection. I wouldn't say to remove them entirely, but maybe instead just create 1-2 specialized covenfolk for flavor or to further explore the magus' interests or character.

For example, Ovarwa's princess character could have a handmaiden covenfolk, a knightly or combative character could have a squire, etc.

I say that we create companions and grogs when we need them.

It might be cheaper, but that's probably still ok. If you want to open it for discussion, maybe Boxer should start things off with a write-up of the virtue?

(Note that my reverse engineering of Mystery Cults suggests that the canonical cost would be one major and one minor virtue to get the three abilities tied together, with the Major virtue adding two abilities to a supernatural one. This is consistent across the Criamon chapter.)



I’m not theoretically against it, but I’d love to hear more from Boxer about it. What do you hope to accomplish? What sorts of things do you see yourself doing with it?

As we need them is my vote. If there’s a need for specialists, non-faceless grogs, etc, we’ve got enough people that someone can jump in and play them and write them up later if they keep coming back.

With so many magi, I hope we’ll do a fair bit of splitting up. I’m a big fan of multiple adventures going on simultaneously, since PbP lends itself to it, and it keeps everyone busy rather than standing around with all the magi bottlenecked in one plot. That way we don’t end up with Too Many Hands syndrome, and gives people an opportunity to play companions simultaneously if they want.

That’s my $0.02, anyway.

I've already made a first draft of my character (although I haven't started writing up post-apprenticeship development in any detail).

I've always been fascinated with the properties of eyes in film and fantasy going back to seeing Bela Lugosi in Dracula many years ago so I decided the central theme for my character would be powers manifested through the eyes.

Piercing gaze first came to mind. I also added Keen Eyesight and considered Second Sight. However, it occured to me that someone with such eyes might incite fear or hostility in others. They would look back at him fearfully or in scorn. Thus emphasizing the theme. I decided to add Strong Faerie Blood partially because of it having Second Sight built in, but also the description of the virtue made it clear the characters would have a certain physical feature(s) that would hint at their heritage.

Having established a general outline, I expanded upon the idea of others mistrusting him. Judged Unfairly seemed appropriate. Coupled with the Gift, it made for certainly a backstory where the character migt find it difficult to establish any relations with others. The temptation to add gentle gift for more "social" abilities did cross my mind, but I preferred that the character be a product of circumstance and not by his own failings. That there would be a certain feeling of resentment towards others in general.

I expanded upon that and fleshed out the character some more. I then considered what vocation would such a character be apt at? Such powers would make a fine investigator so quaesitor seemed like the logical choice. However, I've always had a soft spot for Tremere. I looked back at Houses of Hermes: true Lineages and noticed the section on scouts; the illusionists of the House. I felt this was perfect for the theme, someone that was equally adept at discerning falsehood but also creating and manipulating perception. I devoted the art scores into mentem, imaginem and a couple of techniques.

Lastly, I considered why such a character would be involved with Andorra and the Knights of Seneca. The write-up on the covenant and on the Founder Flambeau left his fate to be nebulous. With what I already established in the character creation, I figured the character might feel the need to uncover the truth or at least dispel the illusions and preconceptions of others if only subconsciously out of how others have heaped upon him since his youth. I'll post shortly the character sheet once I am done with the post-apprenticeship tinkering.

Also, one should be most fantasy than the other.

Anyway, Merinita will be good for you. Jerbiton might do it almost better, though.
As boxer said, the peacefull criamon might be good... Save for the tatoos.

So I'd say merinita (faerie princess) or jerbiton (mundane one). Its family might have given her to a magus in order to get rid of her (faerie tale motif there :wink:)

Parma would stop it from happening inside its boundaries.
He'll just be inside a bubble of cold which, unless magically maintained (and thus blocked), will dissipate quickly

IIRC, it's just 3 different. And it's his ex misc virtue...
Powerfull, but go for it, maybe with a linked related minor (accent on minor) flaw like a curse/duty to protect nature.

Or feel like it.
I love creating characters :blush:

Very tired now.

Going for a verditius knight.

A kind of ex misc true lineage integrated into the verditius.
They make their items by summoning and bonding spirits in it (same mechanics, different fluff).
Thus, I'm also gonna give him hermetic theurgy. The goal is for all of his magic to be performed by spirits, some summoned, the majority bound (items).
He'll be a kind of a psycho noble, very generous and regal to his friends and servants, very proud too, and cruel if not shown "proper respect".

I already have some fun magic item ideas :slight_smile:

Since you all ask, let me provide the background to the creation a bit.

As more or less dilineated to Mark both when i decided to join and just again today, this character is actually one that Im dusting off for use after having originally designed it with the help of The Fixer (for the Slieve League PbP which never got started here) through several days of frustrating trial and error and much erasing and rewriting.

His conceptualisation began with the notion of the ancient celtic druids that they did not die but would be reincarnated coupled with a bit of personal study into the belief about the Ouroboros (the great serpent that circumscribes and holds together all that we know and see of the material order).

Add in a sprinkle of initial curiosity on a merlinesque type (and recalling the line from the 1980's film Excalibur where Merlin says "I am the Dragon" or somesuch) and I began to explore and crunch a bit.

I decided that he wouldnt be a druid per se (although his life and magical practices would have been touched by druidic influence) thus no need to agonize over whether or not to make him some sort of diedne. I finally decided he would be more a prophetic type having had his birth engineered by a secretive cabal known as the Ourobori (more on them later).

Immediately after birth he was, according to the cabal's prophecy, taken from his mother (little more than an incubation vessel) and abandoned to the wilds (Feral Upbringing). He survived thanks to the agency of animals and the curious intrusions of the fae (Fairie Upbringing). I have to check my notes but I believe that around 7 years of age he was found and reclaimed to human tutelage by a medicant monk who had him long enough to teach him how to talk and give him his rudimentary Artes Liberales. His Gift manifested and he was subsequently passed to an Ex Misc Hedgie who (unbeknownst to my character) was well briefed by anonymous missives from the cabal that birthed him, that he was to train the child in the ways of the wilderness (not the virtue) so that he would manifest his powers as The Warden of the Wilderness.

This idea came both from having read the Nature Lore Virtue section and also a fantasy series I am reading, The Runelords, by David Farland.

Now, When I conceieved of this I saw that Nature Lore as the Virtue is designed would not suffice for the broader wilderness theme that I wanted for him, so defaulting to Ex Misc to create a new tradition I bounced the idea of amalgamating three types of Nature Lore into what I would call Wilderness Lore (comprising: Mountain, Forest, and Animal) giving him the benefit of union with the whole of "the land" or the earth if you will.

Now as for his purpose, there is of course how he has come to view his task and what others might expect of him. HE sees himself as more of a prophet, trying to awaken people to the truth of the origins of the cosmic order/division of the realms (magic, divine, infernal, Faerie, and that of mind (non-Raw) and material, albeit in less of a Greek philosophical way than one who has seen and knows, if you get my drift.

The cabal (The Orobouri) are comprised of members from numerous Houses but none knows the other for purposes of secrecy and safety. The cabal is NOT a religion per se, although it considers itself adherents to a body of beliefs about the fall from the one true state of being (of everything) and the goal of ultimately unifying all the realms back into that one true state. This idea originated from the very brief blurb in HoH:MC about Empedocles and the Spahros from the Criamon chapter, although in the nascent cosmology I hope one day to write up for Sub Rosa my character's cosmology has nothing really to do with acting aptly or notions of morality and more to do with facilitating the re-unification of the realms and the material/immaterial worlds back to the perfect state.

Insofar the Ourobori do not worship a god, but rather pay homage to the great serpent who contains and maintains there is little to deny the possibility that amongst its members are one or more even from Tremere alongside more likely houses such as Bjornaer and Merinita and Criamon (and even Tytalus). Nobody knows for sure cause none of them acknowledge their membership in this secretive cabal. When they have met (very infrequently) it has always been a faceless (or masked) gathering. So to on the eve when Dragan was birthed.

Now, as a whole, according to the prophetic and ceremonially proscriptive Tome of the Ourobori (kept by the chosen Grand Archon (an office held only for a given time and then passed back for re-selection)) the cabal acknowledges that Dragan's birth (and infusion with the spirit of an ancient druid, Amergin, from the mind of the breath of the Ouroboros itself) was to serve the will and message of the Ouroboros first and foremost.

However, as with any human (and not least Hermetic) cabal, the individual parts do not necessarily equal the whole as far as designs and aspirations go. Thus for ongoing trials throughout his life, he will inevitably be sought after to advance more petty agendas. One example of this is that I envisioned one or more likely Ourobori as also hailing from the Bjornaer Huntress Cult with thoughts of their own that this guy could well be the messiah we have waited for to go kill Quendalon etc etc... (Sky's the limit for SG story seed possibilities here).

So what I arrived at finally was a magus who is equal parts Druidic/non-druidic, Prophetic (with Visions flaw), Ancient celtic warrior (able to fight mundanely rather than always with magic or at least using magic only defensively or for enhancement during combat), rugged wilderness outdoorsman and guide and although not overtaken with affection for the Fae, understands them and their nature and place in the existing order perhaps better than they do themselves and yet respects them for what they are.

He is not a shapehifter by virtue but can and does assume of the form of the Great Wyrm of the Earth when absolutely necessary and when permitted to do so by visions from the mind of his ultimate master The Ouroboros itself (for the furtherance of it's purposes, not his own).

Hope that gives a bit of insight into my thinking even as it undoubtedly raises a hundred questions. :wink:



Just to add: His name, in fact, means Earth Dragon in Irish Gaelic and it's pronounced Dra-GAN Ta-LAV (mh="v").


And she's missing something in her life nonetheless; she is constrained.

Sometimes, though over time the girl has become increasingly capable, and she always has to help herself and make the big choices. The Sleeping Beauty is more of an object than, say, Ariel and her successors.

Hmm. I don't usually see this as part of the Disney arc. Ariel never becomes more responsible, Jasmine is always more responsible than Aladdin, and in the crossovers (such as Enchanted), there's a lot more of a balance. Indeed, innocence itself becomes a kind of ability that she brings to the table, an unexpected resource.

I see the fulcrum being sacrifice.

  1. The other characters are inspired by her newfound confidence and manage to defeat the evil doers. The hero and now heroine princess live happily ever after or until the next straight to dvd release.

And it's not necessarily the other characters; sometimes she is instrumental. There's a balancing act between preserving innocence and developing capability, and it's different from movie to movie.

considers Now you have me thinking.


Act 1, Scene 1: She lives in a wonderful world, yet something is missing. It is perfect, even wonderful and wondrous, yet bland and predictable. She wants freedom and excitement.

Act 1, Scene 2: She encounters someone from outside her context. She yearns for that other context and that other person.

Act 2: As she pursues what she wants by any means necessary, complications arise. She discovers either that the new context is not what it seems, or that she is opposed by powerful and implacable foes. Worse, her old context is threatened. She is hopelessly trapped, no longer able to return to her old life (which might be destroyed or on the brink of that) and barred from the new. Her world in imperiled.

Act 3: She discovers new resources within her and a newfound appreciation for what she has always had and been. Together with her companions, evil is defeated and she attains what she wants. Sometimes she is changed by the experience, sometimes not; ditto for her world.

Yes. I don't think the formula is always that straightforward, but we're thinking along similar lines, a migration toward action. But this might be anywhere along the arc! Some Disney girls are active from the start, others not.

considers Putting her at the point in her arc that you describe as Phase 3 requires me to define the stuff she currently contends against in an active way.

My instinct is to create her as a more modern Disney heroine (that is, more active rather than a babe for someone to fall in love with, even though that will probably happen.... more flaws! :>) and place her at one of the following places:

  • Beginning of Act 1, Scene 1: She is beginning to explore her new context, but still hasn't fixed on a specific desire. She might have an enemy or rival, but the Big Bad has not made himself obvious. This allows the SG to introduce true loves, saga villains, and so on, rather than deal with a story in media res.

  • After the end of Act 2, when the Disney movie formula seems to have been derailed: Something bad has happened, and she has yet to overcome the setback and regain her innocence, or strike a balance. She needs to bring an enemy to the table, but her story does not pick up in media res.

  • After the end of Act 3. Her Disney movie has resolved, and now the deeper tale can begin.

The underlying issue to me is the extent to which she has already been tested. This isn't about Hermetic experience.

For all that it's funny to create an AM Disney princess, I find real Disney movies to be grim in their own way. The choices these girls face are perilous beyond most adult fare, and without a scriptwriter, things might not go so well.....

Or Tytalus. Or Ex Misc. Or Merinita.

Some secrets last years. There's even a best-seller about the descendant of Mary Magdalen, and a conspiracy to keep this secret....

This particular Dark Secret can have all kinds of repercussions. Suppose even fifty years later, the rightful heir becomes known to some disgruntled nobles. Suddenly she can be used as a pretext for their ambitions against the current (illegitimate) ruler. Or maybe there is a secret society still looking for her, and they know she's alive (her candle is still lit in the chapel,or something); not the kind of folks you want showing up at a covenant. And if the Order finds out, her parens might be in trouble for interfering with mundanes. What if someone knows, and threatens her with exposure? Or if her nephew finds out and begs for help? Or is just in trouble?

But yes, faerie is easier. Much easier:

Maybe a Faerie Queen. :> And even if time doesn't flow differently, Faeries remember forever....

Yeah. I think the Faerie route is easier in all kinds of ways, unless something tickles Mark's fancy about a mundane entanglement. The other nice aspect of the Faerie route is that I can easily justify her personality shifting only slowly. (This is something Isuspect is neglected all too often when creating magi; I notice few senior magi played as anything other than in their 20s or 30s, at best.)

But probably the biggest draw of the Faerie approach is that it explains her being a Disney princess, with the associated abilities, rather than a real one, who is not likely to do what Buttercup can, even in Mythic Europe.

I am thinking to use most of the 10-20 years available.

Yes to that too. Unfortunately, I cannot take everything!

The big princess package:

Nature Lore: Animals--she can talk to them and has lots of friends who help her
Gentle Gift: Duh
Venus' Blessing: Yup
Supernatural Beauty: Of course
Enchanting Music: Maybe. But even the villains sing and sway people--or not. Everyone sings, but this is just a manifestation of the underlying beauty or cunning. Hmm. Special circumstances?
Optimistic: Played as a kind of innocence.
Enemy/Heir/Dark Secret: Some combination here.

Awakening is intriguing, which would let her invest awakened animals with stuff instead of devices! Where a Verditius has an enchanted staff, ring, sword and cloak, Buttercup has a Awakened (and invested :>) pegasus, hawk, swarm of bees, lobster... Oh, this is deviant.

Thank you for your post.




Not canonically, the same way Parma doesn't stop PeTe beneath the magus' feet.

We're not creating a magical medium, not creating some cold, just destroying some Ignem in the air....

(Now, my variant Parma rules would work as you suggest, but that's not canonical.)

That's not how Parma works. Back to PeTe (instead of this PeIg): If a magus aims a PeTe beneath another magus, that magus does not get to resist, whether the PeTe is Mom or Sun duration.

I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with. I keep wanting to play with Theurgy.




I'm a big fan of mini-maxing. Really truly. Effective characters rock.

Nature Lore is a fabulous virtue. Fabulous, fabulous.

I definitely understand the virtue you want, because in creating Buttercup I wanted something almost identical to what you're asking for. I sympathize.

If the rules did not already cover what you want, I might agree. But you can achieve your end using existing game mechanics simply by taking Nature Lore three times. The only difference is that you pay fewer xps.

I don't see a reason to create new rules for this, and a good reason not to.

Not my call though.



Hmm, I have seen nothing that would preclude the legality of having it as a Major Non Herm Virtue included as one of my House freebies. I consider his blend of virtues perfectly balanced with his flaws, and he has some tragic flaws if played correctly. Spending for 3 Nature Lores would preclude other virtues I thought would make him more capable in a general sense. He'll will be spending much xp on mundane abilities as well as Lore or MT or Arts so he wont progress fast. I got a built in brake on overpowered play so I understand your possible concern.

Just let me know whether this cahracter sits well with the troupe and if not Ill do up a different one. Its not an issue either way with me. :slight_smile:

First draft for Octavian after gauntlet

[size=150]Octavian of Tremere [/size]

Characteristics: Int +2, Per +2, Str +1, Sta +1, Com -1, Prs +1(+2), Dex +1, Qik +1.
Size: 0
Age: 38 (24)
Decrepitude: 0
Warping Score: (not calculated yet)
Confidence Score: 1 (3)

Virtues and Flaws: The Gift, Hermetic Magus, Minor Magical Focus, Entrancement, Fast Caster, Improved Characteristics, Keen Vision, Piercing Gaze, Strong Faerie Blood [Sidhe] - Second Sight, Continence, Favors [Terrace of Jerbiton], Judged Unfairly, Study Requirement, Susceptibility to Divine Power, Visions.

Personality Traits: Distant +3, Pragmatic +3, Polite +3.
Reputations: Quaesitor in Good Standing +3 (Hermetic Magi) - I discussed with this with marko and will be later balanced out with a new flaw as Octavian became a quaesitor post-gauntlet.

Gauntlet: Init +1, Attack +3, Defense +4, Damage +3, Load 0.
Kick: Init +0, Attack +3, Defense +2, Damage +4, Load 0.
Dagger: Init +1, Attack +5, Defense +3, Damage +4, Load 0.

Soak: +3
Fatigue Levels: OK, 0, -1, -3, -5, Unconscious.
Wound Penalties: -1 (1-5), -3 6-10), -5 (11-15), Incapacitated (16-20).

Early Childhood (Apparent Age 4)
French 5 (Occitan dialect)
Athletics 2 (Running)
Awareness 2 (Alertness)
Brawl 1 (Grapples)
Folk Ken 1 (later specialized in Magi)
Stealth 1 (Sneak)
Entrancement 1 (later specialized in Magi)
Second Sight 1 (later specialized in Illusory Disguises)

Later Life (Until age 9, apparent age 7)
Brawl +1
Etiquette 3 (Townsfolk)
Folk Ken +1
Guile 1 (Elaborate Lies)
Leadership 1 (Intimidation)

Apprenticeship (Until age 24, apparent age 15)
Abilities (100)
Artes Liberales 1 (Ritual Magic)
Code of Hermes 1 (Tribunal Procedures)
Magic Theory 3 (Inventing Spells)
Latin 4 (Hermetic Usage)
Parma Magica 1 (Mentem)
Penetration 1 (Rego)

Hermetic Arts: (140) Cr 7, In 0, Mu 7, Pe 0, Re 7, An 0, Aq 0, Au 0,
Co 0, He 0, Ig 0, Im 7, Me 7, Te 0, Vi 0.

Twilight Scars: None
Equipment: Partial Metal Reinforced Leather Armor, gauntlets, dagger, grimoire, thumb ring w/sigil of House Tremere, official quaesitor documentation, traveling clothing, ceremonial Tremere robes.
Encumbrance: 0


Endurance of the Berserkers (ReCo 15/+8)
Aura of Ennobled Presence (MuIm 10/+15)
Disguise of the Transformed Image (MuIm 15/+15)
Wizard's Sidestep (ReIm 10/+15)
Pains of the Perpetual Worry (CrMe 20/+15)
The Eyes of Somnus* (ReMe 5/+15)
Confusion of the Numbed Will (ReMe 15/+15)
The Unseen Porter (ReTe 10/+8)
Wizard's Communion (MuVi 15/+8)

  • As The Call to Slumber except with R: Eye.

The raven haired magus appears to be in his early to mid twenties; much younger than his real age of 38 would suggest. For most of the year his skin is a pale color, contrasting with dark wisps of hair that frame his aquiline features. In the summer, he tans easily to a dark coppery tone that emphasizes his sinister ancestry. He carries himself with a serene albeit distant manner that is easy to overlook were it not for his terrible eyes. Eerie pupil less green orbs that hungrily flicker in the darkness or when he invokes spells leave all but the most stalwart of magi or pious of crusaders with a feeling of unease.

Octavian’s soft-spoken speech and non-confrontational tone are uncharacteristic with his vocation as a quaesitor and his involvement in the recent troubles in the Iberian Tribunal. He is unfailingly polite regardless of the circumstance but there is always a nagging distrust impressed upon others despite the sincerity of his words.

He commonly wears a customized version of the Tremere ceremonial robes as a knee-long jacket over trousers tucked into knee high boots, and a black leather tunic. Occasionally he wears a headband to keep his hair from obstructing his face but will remove it when concealing his eyes would be more prudent. When he expects trouble, he wears a metal reinforced jerkin beneath his jacket as well as matching gauntlets hidden by long billowing sleeves.

Normally, I’m all for “go with whatever”, but I see where Ken is coming from on this. It does sort of seem like you’re getting something for nothing as regards the XP savings – that virtues are balanced with flaws is already given, and the virtue is more powerful that its three minor counterparts because of the savings.

This is a cool idea, but it does seem very broad. Societates notes that, in general, the scope of the major virtue should be no larger than a Minor Magical Focus. There are exceptions, but Forests+Mountains+Animals covers the vast majority of things on terra firma and, if Hermetic, would be much too large for even a major focus.

Could we perhaps come to a compromise?

  • Take three Nature Lores free in the place of one major virtue free? This requires house-ruling away the typical Ex Misc. requirement with a major virtue, but hey, Ex Miscs are weird, who’s to say they all have just one defining virtue?
  • Re-imagine the concept so that it’s more general or different in scope than Nature Lore x3, but covers a broader area, so you can still get what you want in one virtue?
  • Do the second option above and then take Nature Lore on top of that, for extra-naturey goodness in one area of expertise?

If the consensus, as I said, is that it is too much, then I'll galdly take a look and see if anything can be modified and still maintain the concept, if not I'll gladly change to a different concept.

Has everyone had their say?