Table Talk - Development

That really is the fundamental idea of the summoner neh? Cosmic powers in a narrow focus. But if that focus happens to be summoning allies... well... versatility is a summoning away.

I have a great fondness for playing summoners in any magic oriented game.

Just hope you dont have much firepower outside summoning or else the rest of us will become irrelevant lol.

Only as strong as the soldier on his Left and Right my friend. No one become irrelevant. And I see his fatal weakness (:twisted:)

Almost none at all. That is his complete focus. He may develop out into a broader spectrum of things after the game starts, using his high rego or vim scores to various ends... but pretty much summoning is all his is good for.

Since Marko doesn't have access to RoP: Infernal, he's passed the SG hammer of reviewing Vortigern's character to me.

I've sent my comments in PM to Vortigern.

In short, it's a great concept but a bit too "enthusiastically" endowed with mystery Virtues. I think it's easy to rebalance and fix.



Hmm Id have to look it over again but if thats too many mystery virtues, I dare say my character may end up failing muster as well. :frowning:

I missed this due to intermittent internet issues, apologies.

I like the themed coterie of minions approach - it's a bit of a departure from classical Titanoi but I think it works. The thief gang is an interesting idea - even if they're all about Might 5 they fit the concept nicely, a ghostly Tytalan Agency nonetheless!

See my comments via PM on powers/Might etc and ideas.

I'll look over these and see if I can come up with any specific suggestions regarding powers/Abilities etc. Sadly, I have just packed up my printer which will make reading these a bit tricky...



I agree that the V&Fs are a little top heavy. Flawles Magic? Puissant Rego & Vim seems like a little too much gravy. AND, so you know, Affinity applies when studying that Art. The bonus xp's from Hermetic Sorcery do dot get multiplied (at least I don't think they would, would they?). AND, you can only start with one single Major Hermetic Virtue, though you can gain more later.

Currently revising in line with some of your critiques, and the notes from Jarkman. The affinities I do think should apply to the hermetic sorcery... as I think it is in keeping with the intent of the affinity virtue. In a manner similar to how the wording of 'flawless magic' was changed in the errata, I assumed it would work the same. Though if that isn't your understanding I will revise?

How many seasons should one spend on an initiation? I have it as one season ( and ten xp worth of time ) per. Beyond that I've yet to develop anything, waiting for the story elements of it to go with when I more fully develop my background notes. I generally have in my accounting assumed that he would initiate once every other year or so, with him usually spending at least one season a year 'adventuring' to include doing quests and whatnot for the cult. ( all undefined as of yet. ) But generally I didn't think that was overly excessive for a magi without a covenant making demands on his time. That is basically what he has been doing at the expense of settling down and establishing himself... pursuing that hard to come by lore of his magical lineage.

I do however have no problem cutting some of the virtues or reworking things in general should that become necessary. I can see your POV concerning the puissants and perhaps the flawless magic.

In my current revision I've the following:

Virtues: ( 10 ) Self Confident ( House ), Major Magical Focus ( Spirits ) ( Major ), Summoning ( Major ), Second Sight ( Minor ), Cautious Sorcerer ( Minor ), Affinity ( Rego ) ( Minor ), Affinity ( Vim )( Minor ), The Gift, Hermetic Magus

Flaws: ( 10 ) Incomprehensible ( Minor ), Proud ( Minor ), Wrathful (Minor), Infamous Master ( Lineage of Tasgillia / Mercatora of Rallantali )( Minor ), Cabal Legacy ( Titanoi )( Minor ), Pagan ( Major ), Hermetic Patron: Titanoi ( Minor ), Seeker: Theurgic Magic/Mysteries ( Minor )

Acquired Virtues: ( 10 ) Hermetic Sorcery ( Major ), Commanding ( Major ), Leadworker ( Minor ), Chthonic Magic ( Major )

Acquired Flaws: ( 10 ) Enemies: Sahirs ( Major ), Proud ( Upgrade, Major ), Wrathful ( Upgrade, Major ), ( +1 undecided major flaw, suggestions welcome )

Still reworking my accounting to go with this version. All of these are from initiations I have accounted for in my time workup... though the possiblity has been raised of twilights and the like doing interesting things. I've never really considered that. I'm also considering cutting the Chthonic Magic entirely ( and thus a reworking of the flaws, and accounting ) as Marko has expressed he is alright with an all magic realm version of goetia.

Anyway... that is where I'm at now. No desire for over-cosmic-ness here. :wink: Thoughts?

Pretty good. Initiation usually averages a season, though it can sometimes take more. We have been not taking any xp from seasons of initiation, just exposure xp I think. The Goetic arts are not Infernal, except for Ablating, shich is always Infernal. Cthonic Magic is dark, but not necessarilly infernal. Just quoting what I had a chance to read from my bbuddies Infernal book.

Otherwise it looks good. I'll write the scene with the summoned spirit later tonight.

I meant I was deducting ten xps as 'lost' from each season of initiation, and assigning one season to each initiation. So, now, that is... 40xp lost for the time spent.

Ah, now I see the overkill that was mentioned before and from reading the RoP:TI citation about Hermetic Sorcery I would rule with Marko's original understanding.

Hermetic Sorcery is in itself a form of Affinity, not a branch of Magic unto itself. As such it applies when you study any of the Geotic Arts OR when you study any of the Realm Lores (geez I should have read this book when I decided my Virtue paths lol). Thus you get bonus xp's to Rego from studying any of the Goetic Arts OR bonus xp's to Vim from studying any of the Realm Lores, BUT you are not in those instances studying either Rego or Vim. Thus you cannot say that those bonus xp's are subject to the affinity bonuses of virtues pertaining to study of either of those two Hermetic Arts directly. This is stacking of the most munchkinish manner indeed.

Initiations for most things are indeed accounted as requiring a season, although strict reading of some might suggest that those requiring travel (i.e. Verditius Elder Runes) might require a prior season's sacrifice to get to Durenmar depending on where the candidate is coming from and how he/she is traveling. For simplicity sake I have not worked elaborate initiation scripts into my character development for each initiation, presuming most to be long-practiced methologies reuqiring only invitation or proven worthiness etc. In the case of my derivation on the single aspected Nature Lore (e.g. Wilderness Lore) I have provided increasing time sacrifice for each of the three aspects rather than detail elaborate scripts as a means of reducing lengthy explanations.

In keeping with the raised eyebrows initially expressed over some of the Virtues that were listed as initiated I must say I too think the idea of ANY virtue being initiated apart from those expressly stated as possible in the RAW (and there are already many) as being a cheap out. Flawless Magic, for example I would say one does not initiate, it is a possible starting virtue which one either has or does not. Foci, Potencies and puissance/affinities can justifiably be gained since (again for example) one reads in the Dream Magic section of TMRE that the mentor can be appealed to to teach these as extras during the initiation process.

As far as your last flaw goes, might I suggest any of the following:

  1. Blatant Gift: Adds to the ominous aura of the man given his truck with spirits of questionable nature/character.

  2. Difficult Longevity Ritual: His magical propensities have so attuned his own spirit that he is less able to channel corpus oriented energies.

  3. Magical Addiction: his avarice for spiritual power has unleashed his magical inhibitions and generated a craving for that magical rush.

  4. Painful Magic: As part of the toll his body has suffered from meddling with powerful spiritual forces, he suffers pain (fatigue) of increasing increments as he attempts to assert control over greater (and/or Alternate Realm) spiritual entities. Also gives more fuel to his wrathfulness which is increasingly incensed according to the toll his summoning/binding escapades takes upon him physically.

  5. Twilight Prone: also plays into the "channeling greater amounts of magical energy" to accomplish greater spiritual victories.

Any of those would seem to fit well.

Blatant Gift and Twilight Prone seem the most sound choices. I would say that you can initiate Flawless Magic, but it doesnt fit in with this line of mysteries. I have some ideas that may help, but I will wait until later tonight to write them up. All I can say now is Persevere. I want you to have this character. It will all work out. Also, this should satnd as a warning for Boxer, as he will prolly get grilled when he finally posts a sheet.

And Xavi! Your guy is good to go. I know you have his full sheet, so post it please :smiley:

No doubt i will have my share of detractors, but to be honest I have perhaps half (or less actually) the number of extra Virtues (gained after initial character generation) as does Vertigern with the bulk being saved till in-play.

Your warning has been my modus operandi since early on in our development discussions. :wink:

hey, if the troupe approves having bizzare god-like powers, imortality, and vis in your every strand of hair, then that's what they approve. I keep emphacizing, Troupe Rules. As long as everyone feels comfortable with each other and their own character, then I am all good.

Now there's an idea I didnt think of!! hmmmm..... (reviews development novel) :wink:

I hope you realize I am kidding! :laughing:

aww shucks :wink:

I found my answer to be clear, sorry.
Yes, they are infernal, but I LOOOOOOOOVE them.

The exact thing is that summoning needn't be infernal, but all the others are (RoP: tI p 115).

So, he can have magical summoning, but infernal commanding and all.

Note also that you could do some of this with "pure" hermetic magic: Have you checked the "black magic" section, p 120? This might interest you a lot, IMHO.

I'll do it with pleasure, I love this book and abilities, and have read them a lot of times :laughing:
Ah, I see jarkman is doing it, no problem, then :smiley:

I scanned RoP-Infernal, and I think it says Ablating is always infernal, but not the others. I am unsure. I borrowed the book. I have to return it, so I will cram for the exam.