Table Talk - Development

Nope.

As marko said, you can have a creature ready to trade bleak immortality for a few bright years, but still, as YOU deem preferable to live forever, you decide to deny it to him, based on your choice. Then again, just as you could say to a paralitic "I choose for you to live forever in this state, instead of being whole and dying in 10 years". Their life, their choice.

Franckly, to me, the biggest problem here is that you see immortality as eminently desirable, and can't conceive that there might be trade-offs.

And sure, this choice might be affected by their affection for the magus, but maybe not in the way you think. If clara dies, wirth will die, although he plans to live forever... With her. But life without her is nothing to him. And there's no familiar bond in it :wink:
In fact, he would see such a bond like a blessing if the death of his wife would mean death for him. Don't you think some familiars might think along similar lines? Such degree of commitment can also explain why it is so difficult to find one, instead of taking the magical cat next door.

Moreso, to think that the familiar would do this to keep the magus affection means, IMO, that it is not a suitable familiar, since true friends don't feel the need to do anything to keep the friendship of their companions. There need to be real trust and friendship between a magus and his would-be familiar, and this precludes such feelings.

On another subject...

My girlfriend is curious about this role-playing stuff, and I suggested maybe she could make a character and play with us--a companion, since she's not big on rules (I don't have any tabletop games going on, so I have no other way to involve her). She wants to play a faerie, and has an interesting character concept--I thought we could make it pretty easily with the Magic rules. Would anyone object to having her play?

Scott

It's cool with me, depending on how everyone else feels.

OK, let me cut to the meat of this:

Sure, we can justify taking immortal familiars even if doing so will make them die. However, what does the saga gain by doing so? I realize that's techically how the ArM5 familiar rules are written, but since much of what's written in there is already invalidated by RoP: Magic, and since intent of the original rule is actually reversed by having the typical familiar be immortal rather than mortal (that is, it shortens lifespan, rather than lengthening it), I'm not sure the rule even still applies (it's clear from the discussion about learning that the authors of the new book didn't really think through how it would affect familiars).

Scott

Hot off the presses!

So, problem solved :smiley:

Yay!

Scott

In the Bible, the problem for Christian magi seems to be "spirit familiars"

Here's some quotes:

Lev.19

  1. [31] Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

Lev.20

  1. [6] And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.
  2. [27] A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

Deut.18

  1. [11] Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

1Sam.28

  1. [3] Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land.
  2. [7] Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
  3. [8] And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
  4. [9] And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?

2Kgs.21

  1. [6] And he made his son pass through the fire, and observed times, and used enchantments, and dealt with familiar spirits and wizards: he wrought much wickedness in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.

2Kgs.23

  1. [24] Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the LORD.

1Chr.10

  1. [13] So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it;

2Chr.33

  1. [6] And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.

Isa.8

  1. [19] And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

Isa.19

  1. [3] And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards.

Isa.29

  1. [4] And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.

Fine by me too.

As for the "familiar spirits"...it's not clear from those passages what the term means, and I'm guessing it could mean any kind of familiar. However, in any case, you'll note that it often appears in lists with "necromancer" and "wizard". The sinful thing seems to be, not having a familiar, but rather being a wizard, and having a familiar is just a way of identifying a wizard. (There was a long discussion on the subject of the Bible's prohibition of magic on the Berklist a couple of years ago.)

Scott

Oh yeah! I remember that discussion from way back when. IMHO though, one needs to use a less strict interpretation that the Bible Belt does (heck, some extremists think Harry Potter is Satanic!). In Real Life, I do believe the prohibition is agains all wizardry and all familiars. But that would make for a grim game, so I will use the strict wording of "Necromancers" and "Familiar Spirits".

Even in-game, there's nothing that says the Bible has to be 100% true. The Divine is real, but its exact nature is mysterious.

Scott

Well, I am a Christian, and I do believe the Bible is 100% true. To pretend otherwise would make me feel uncomfortable. However, I do believe that it isn't interpreted 100% accurately, so take that for what its worth.

Also bear in mind that Bible was translated from greek to latin and latin to English and all sorts of imperfections creeped in there.

Depends on what edition you use. King James has this flaw, though it is incredibly accurate despite this. The Revised Standard Edition goes over the Greek portion very carefully to insure accuracy. The American Standard version is known to have an excellent quality Hebrew translation, and the New International Version has an exceptional and fresh Greek translation. Modern Bibles benefit from direct translation from Hebrew & Greek into English. My old buddy, Pastor Cliff (with the Chaos Army, the freak that he is), at seminary he learned two different versions of Greek for the purpose of biblical scholarship. Though he is mistaken in one point, he doesn't think modern and ancient Greek are mutually intelligible, but they are. My grandmother can read classical Greek without any difficulty. It is a required part of Greek school. To a non native speaker, they may seem too different. But to someone who speaks the language naturally, it is no different than Shakespear compared to modern English (if you know English well enough, Shakespear is not all that difficult to read at all).

There are enough references to magic to make it very clear that it's prohibited.

On the other hand, most (Christian) Biblical scholars do not believe that the Bible is 100% accurate or even that the quotes attributed to God and Christ are 100% accurate.

Scott

I believe it is 100% accurate, but not 100% understood correctly. I am an oddbal compared to most conservative Christians in that I think much of the Book of Genisis is metephor.

No, you are not. So does the Pope and every Catholic that follows the official Vatican line.

Ratzinger, J. (2006): Credo für heute. Was Christen glauben. Libreria Editrice Vaticana, Città del Vaticano

Here some quotes (my translation from German into English)
"Believers have to accept the scientific fact that the way they imagined creation is part of a pre-scientific worldview which has become untenable" (p. 38 )
"The Bible is in truth a literature that spans a thousand years" (p. 43)
"Belief in creation is not a belief how the world was created but that it was created" (p. 46)
"The claim that mankind has been created in a more specific, a more direct way than the nature things simply means, expressed somewhat less metaphorically, that man is wanted by God in a spefific way: not just as a being that is but as a being that knows him" (p. 49)

OK, here's my first attempt at a Magic Animal. This is Kra, the grog Astrid's "pet" rook. I've made him a Rook of Virtue, and based him on the Raven of Virtue in Magic, with a few changes to reflect the slightly different nature of and legends about rooks. Here's what he would have looked like at the beginning of play in mid-1204

Name: Kra Species: Rook

Age: 2
Season: Spring
Decrepitude: N/A (Immortal)

Size: -4 Magic Might: 9 (Animal)

Intelligence: 0 Perception: +2
Presence: -2 Communication: +2
Strength: -8 Stamina: 0
Dexterity: +2 Quickness: +5

Virtues: Magic Animal; Essential Virtue (Understands Portents), Keen Vision, Premonitions

Flaws: Judged Unfairly, Magical Friend, Meddler

Magic Qualities: Improved Abilities (x2), Improved Defense (x2), Lesser Power, Minor Virtue (Second Sight)

Magic Inferiorities: Susceptible to Deprivation

Personality Traits: Rook +3*, Understands Portents (Intelligence) +3*, Curious +3, Gregarious +3

Ability Specialty Score XP

Athletics complex flight 5 75
Awareness danger 4 50
Brawl dodging 2 15
Gothic Crimean 2 15
Survival fields 3 30
Premonitions death 3 30
Second Sight ghosts 2 15

Power: Weather Sense, 3 points (as Sailor’s Foretaste of the Morrow, InAu 20, -1 Might cost)

Weapon Init. Atk. Dfn. Dam.
Dodge 5 n/a 12 n/a
Beak/Claws 5 7 10 -7

Soak: 0

Fatigue Levels: Fresh / Weary / Tired / Dazed / Unconscious
-1 -3 -5

Wounds: 1 point per increment

I've then assumed that Kra was able in the intervening 15 1/2 years to get a hold of enough vis to buy Improved Abilities twice more, making him look like this:

Name: Kra Species: Rook

Age: 17 1/2
Season: Spring
Decrepitude: N/A (Immortal)

Size: -4 Magic Might: 9 (Animal)

Intelligence: 0 Perception: +2
Presence: -2 Communication: +2
Strength: -8 Stamina: 0
Dexterity: +2 Quickness: +5

Virtues: Magic Animal; Essential Virtue (Understands Portents), Keen Vision, Premonitions

Flaws: Judged Unfairly, Magical Friend, Meddler

Magic Qualities: Improved Abilities (x4), Improved Defense (x2), Lesser Power, Minor Virtue (Second Sight)

Magic Inferiorities: Susceptible to Deprivation

Personality Traits: Rook +3*, Understands Portents (Intelligence) +3*, Curious +3, Gregarious +3

Ability Specialty Score XP

Athletics complex flight 5 75
Awareness danger 4 50
Brawl dodging 2 15
Gothic Crimean 4 50
Stealth hiding 3 30
Survival fields 3 30
Premonitions death 4 50
Second Sight ghosts 3 30

Power: Weather Sense, 3 points (as Sailor’s Foretaste of the Morrow, InAu 20, -1 Might cost)

Weapon Init. Atk. Dfn. Dam.
Dodge 5 n/a 12 n/a
Beak/Claws 5 7 10 -7

Soak: 0

Fatigue Levels: Fresh / Weary / Tired / Dazed / Unconscious
-1 -3 -5

Wounds: 1 point per increment

Pfff Morons... We all know he's a nazi. Just look at his scar :laughing:

:open_mouth: I guess that means you're a creationnist of sorts?

Ooooh yes.

Funny thing is, some nutjobs think english is the language of God because, in the Bible, god speaks in english. Alleluiah and all are just english words stolen by the jews :laughing:

Translation can be horrible:

The Luther translation of Gen 1,21 says that God created whale fish - which is nonsense, because whales are not fish.

KJV just speaks of whales.

Using the KJV is obviously anachronistic anyway (in 1220), as is a word by word exegesis - but it feels so medieval that I find it hard to resist for gaming purposes.