Table Talk - Development

[Peregrine_Bjornaer]

And now, for something completely different.

I've left Fulminara pretty blank, so far. I had thought that she would have had to be Archmage, because of all the Supernatural Virtues that Elena had. But looking at her sheet again, she only has Greater Immunity as a Supernatural Virtue...technically. I'm thinking that she would have been born with Mythic Blood, which is a Hermetic Virtue (which comes with free Minor Magical Focus and the fire-breathing ability for no extra charge). The Affinity with and Puissant Ignem abilities she could likely have gained during her apprenticeship (in fact, since Puissant Ignem is a House ability, she would have, using the rules for that in the Apprentices book). So, that means that Fulminara would have to have pretty decent Teaching scores to give Vibria those abilities. I'm rambling again...is any of this making sense?

Also, I've left her covenant of apprenticeship blank. I'm thinking that she would have been apprenticed in Iberia, possibly in one of the Reconquista but it could be Roman or Neutral. Or she could be from Provençal or Normandy. I'm basically leaving it available for Marcus to decide what fits best with his plans.

[Peregrine_Bjornaer]

@callen

At the same time I should run the guideline question I gave Mark to make sure we're in agreement on it. It's the last ArM5 MuVi guideline. Perhaps an example is best. Let's say I want to change a CrIg5 formulaic spell I'm casting on someone into a PeMe15 spell to erase a memory. What level MuVi spell do I need to use?

It looks to me like you'd need at least a Level 15. It changes less than level +1 magnitude of the Vim spell. If it's a level 5, that's half of level 10. +1 magnitude makes it Level 15.

[Marko_Markoko]

I am passing the MuVi buck to Perigine

I do not own Apprentices, so I do not know what you speak of. Only worry about core rules for your character. Use those rules if ever we want to flesh out the design of you mater.

[Marko_Markoko]

As for Iberian Covenants, I have a list in this saga forum which needs to be updated and upgraded. We can add new covenants and be a bit creative. The only one I have ever used in game is Barcelona, which I treat as a Hermetic Cassablanca barely being managed by the Jerbiton who dwell there that cope and adapt the best they can.
We can also change dates, say push Campomartes back 50yrs and flesh it out for Guillermo's backstory.

[Peregrine_Bjornaer]

@Marko Markoko

I do not own Apprentices, so I do not know what you speak of. Only worry about core rules for your character. Use those rules if ever we want to flesh out the design of you mater.

Go with apprentice training in the main rule book. Got it. So, if we go with only Immunity to Fire as a non-Hermetic Supernatural Ability, she would need a InVi lab total of at least 30. Which, if you think about it, isn't really that heinous. Vibria has one of 16 (counting Aura), and she's fresh out of gauntlet and didn't put much work into either Intellego or Vim.

[Marko_Markoko]

And there are numerous small ways to boost it: better aura, refined lab, lab specializations, an assistant, a familiar, etceteras.

[Erik_Dahl]

Hmm, my forum settings stopped sending me updates to these boards over the weekend. (Might have been a spam issue.) I will try to catch up.

[Erik_Dahl]

@callen

Mark wanted me to run this by you all:

Minor Magical Focus: manipulating his own spells
This would apply to about half of MuVi. It would apply to a couple ReVi spells, like Maintaining the Demanding Spell. It might apply to a couple random spells elsewhere, but they would be few and far between. The only other one I can think of off-hand would be Boreal Flames, and that only when used on his own spells. That should keep it well under the single TeFo combination limit.

What do you think? As Mark finds it "tweaky" (not quite sure I'm interpreting that as he wants), I'll probably drop it. But I figured I'd do as he suggested and run in by you all first.

Doesn't ArM5 say that you can't use MuVi spells with spontaneous spells? If I'm remembering that correctly, that could significantly limit the usefulness of this as a focus...

I do think having a focus is a really good idea for all magi. It makes them so much more distinctive! Mercuria's major focus will cover healing, growth, and improvement, specifically Creo Corpus but also Animal, Herbam, and Mentem.

[callen]

@Mercuria

Doesn't ArM5 say that you can't use MuVi spells with spontaneous spells? If I'm remembering that correctly, that could significantly limit the usefulness of this as a focus...

Yes, it does. However I think you're misinterpreting something, but I'm not sure if it's that MuVi rule or what I wrote. You cannot use MuVi on spontaneous magic. However, you can use spontaneous MuVi on formulaic magic. The latter is what I was talking about doing. Yes, I was planning on having some formulaic spells this would apply to, such as the Boreal Flames and Maintaining the Demanding Spell I've already selected. (Yes, I know neither of those is MuVi.)

[Erik_Dahl]

@callen

@Mercuria

Doesn't ArM5 say that you can't use MuVi spells with spontaneous spells? If I'm remembering that correctly, that could significantly limit the usefulness of this as a focus...

Yes, it does. However I think you're misinterpreting something, but I'm not sure if it's that MuVi rule or what I wrote. You cannot use MuVi on spontaneous magic. However, you can use spontaneous MuVi on formulaic magic. The latter is what I was talking about doing. Yes, I was planning on having some formulaic spells this would apply to, such as the Boreal Flames and Maintaining the Demanding Spell I've already selected. (Yes, I know neither of those is MuVi.)

Oh right, I just remembered there was something about MuVi and spontaneous spells. So you would apply the focus to the total for the spontaneous spells, but not the spells being manipulated, right? I don't think it's too broad a focus, because there are a lot of limitations built into it, it seems to me.

[callen]

@Peregrine_Bjornaer

@callen

At the same time I should run the guideline question I gave Mark to make sure we're in agreement on it. It's the last ArM5 MuVi guideline. Perhaps an example is best. Let's say I want to change a CrIg5 formulaic spell I'm casting on someone into a PeMe15 spell to erase a memory. What level MuVi spell do I need to use?

It looks to me like you'd need at least a Level 15. It changes less than level +1 magnitude of the Vim spell. If it's a level 5, that's half of level 10. +1 magnitude makes it Level 15.

OK. Now, for clarity, what is the second "+1 Magnitude" for. That's what I'm trying to ascertain. I'm not in disagreement with the final level. I think it should be MuVi15, too. I agree with the change, requiring it to be MuVi10 since the +1 Magnitude in the spell's favor in the guideline is cancelled by R: Touch. You might be saying you wouldn't allow the result to be higher than the MuVi spell and so would require +1 Magnitude. However, you might be saying it's two applications of the guideline and so +1 Magnitude for that reason.

Perhaps I should also ask about changing essentially the same spells but CrIg10 to PeMe20. Is that MuVi20 (doubles the CrIg10 and at least matches PeMe20), or is that MuVi25 (double the CrIg10 and add a Magnitude for two applications of the guideline)?

[callen]

@Mercuria

So you would apply the focus to the total for the spontaneous spells, but not the spells being manipulated, right?

Right, definitely not the spell being manipulated. So here are some examples:

Boreal Flames - only for casting on his own spells

(Note, R: Touch vs. R: Voice is an easy identifier for the spells in ArM5 since R: Touch can only be on your own spells.)
Mirror of Opposition - only for casting on his own spells
Shroud Magic - always since it's made to affect only your own spells
The Sorcerer's Fork - always since it's made to affect only your own spells
Wizard's Boost - always since it's made to affect only your own spells
Wizard's Communion - only for casting on his own spells
Wizard's Reach - only for casting on his own spells

Maintaining the Demanding Spell - always since it's made to affect only your own spells
Opening the Intangible Tunnel - never because it doesn't change the spells cast afterward
Suppressing the Wizard's Handiwork - always since it's made to affect only your own spells

[Peregrine_Bjornaer]

@callen

OK. Now, for clarity, what is the second "+1 Magnitude" for. That's what I'm trying to ascertain. I'm not in disagreement with the final level. I think it should be MuVi15, too. I agree with the change, requiring it to be MuVi10 since the +1 Magnitude in the spell's favor in the guideline is cancelled by R: Touch. You might be saying you wouldn't allow the result to be higher than the MuVi spell and so would require +1 Magnitude. However, you might be saying it's two applications of the guideline and so +1 Magnitude for that reason.

Perhaps I should also ask about changing essentially the same spells but CrIg10 to PeMe20. Is that MuVi20 (doubles the CrIg10 and at least matches PeMe20), or is that MuVi25 (double the CrIg10 and add a Magnitude for two applications of the guideline)?

I think a MuVi 20 spell can alter spells of up to Level 15 (half of 20 is 10, add a magnitude makes it 15). And under the "Totally change" guidelines, it says that a "change in power of up to two magnitudes is a total change." So that same MuVi spell can change your Level 15 CrIg into a PeMe with a level from 5 to 25 (two magnitudes in either direction).

So you could cast your MuVi on a Flash of the Scarlet Flames and transform it into Blessing of Childlike Bliss.

Note that, according to the guidelines main text, if you're casting a MuVi on a spell you're casting, it has to have a duration of at least Diameter or be cast at the same time, with an Int + Concentration roll against an Ease Factor of 9. Also note that the MuVi spell has to affect other spells in a particular way. You can't have a MuVi that says "Changes any CrIg into any PeMe." It needs to be something like "Transform a spell that makes fire or pretty lights into something that gives the nearest observer the mind of a child" or something like that.

If I'm reading the big block o'text correctly.

[Marko_Markoko]

General consensus seems to be that the focus passes muster. Congratulations bill, now you're a law.

[Erik_Dahl]

I'll put my character development here instead of in the other thread, since it seems like this is where we're doing it.

Mercuria of Mercere
Age: 30 (30)
Warping: 0 (4)
Characteristics: Int +2, Per +1, Pre +2, Com -1, Str -2, Sta +3, Dex -1, Qik -1
Virtues and Flaws: The Gift; Hermetic Maga; Major Magical Focus (growth, improvement, and restoration), Mercurian Magic*, Names of Power*; Book Learner, Educated, Hermetic Sacrifice, Hermetic Theurgy, Puissant Creo (free), Skilled Parens, Well-Traveled; Compassionate (major), Deficient Technique (Perdo), Low Self-Esteem; Cabal Legacy, Covenant Upbringing, Deleterious Circumstances (casting at Range: Eye), Dutybound (House Mercere), Infamous Master, Magical Spirit Companion, Pagan* (as Minor Personality Flaw)

• gained after Gauntlet
  Abilities: Artes Liberales 4 (ceremony), Awareness 2 (people), Concentration 3 (casting), Cult of Mercury Lore 2 (people), Folk Ken 2 (young women), French 5 (Provençal), Greater Alps Tribunal Lore 1 (people), Latin 5 (Hermetic), Magic Lore 2 (gods and spirits), Magic Theory 3 (spells), Order of Hermes Lore 2 (magi), Parma Magica 5 (Mentem), Philosophiae 4 (ceremony), Provençal Tribunal Lore 2 (people), Roman Tribunal Lore 1 (people)
  Arts: Cr 12+3, In 5, Mu 5, Re 10, An 5, Co 11, He 5, Me 5, Vi 11
  Spells:
  Soothe the Savage Bear (ReAn10)
  Bind Wound (CrCo10)
  Chirurgeon's Healing Touch (CrCo20R)
  Incantation of the Body Made Whole (CrCo40R)
  Call to Slumber (ReMe10)
  Wizard's Curse (CrVi20)
  Invoke the Spirit of Creo Herbam (CrVi40)
  Wizard's Communion* (MuVi40)
  Invoke the Spirit of Rego Corpus (ReVi30)

The first major event in her life happened before her Gauntlet, when there was a terrible disaster during a dedication ceremony at the Hermetic university she was attending. Her parens, Adustus of Bonisagus, was a good friend of her father's, and they founded the school together specifically for him to educate his daughter. During the course of the event, both her father and her parens, and the rest of her classmates, were killed. It is said that Adustus was responsible for the horrible event -- he was the headmaster after all -- but she doesn't like to talk about it. She was taken to Doissetep to finish her apprenticeship. There, she was initiated into the Cult of Mercury and treated reverently by the Redcaps who serve them, though she has never felt she deserves this. She was born to Redcap parents as the result of a special ritual in 1200 and so to many of them she is seen as a scion of the House.

The second cycle began after her Gauntlet. She became an acolyte in the Temple to Mercury, and during the ceremonies associated with the cult she discovered she had a spirit bound to her somehow, as a result of the events at Lyon. She and others in the cult believe it is an aspect of Mercury reborn. Using the proper casting tablet she summoned him to allow him to manifest completely, though he is only rarely corporeal. No one is sure exactly what this powerful spirit wants from her. However, she was immediately initiated into the inner circle of Doissetep's cult members, taking a seat on the council and named a full priest of Mercury. As part of her duties, she was often called upon to cast (again, from tablets) the signature spells of the Cult upon worthy Redcaps.

Her third cycle involved the death of her mother, who contracted a wasting sickness that magic seemed to have no effect against, and withered to almost nothing very quickly. Her mother's last desire is to return to the place where she was born and raised before she left to join the Redcaps: Andorra. A new covenant was founded near her home village in the intervening years, but disastrously failed and there has been word about great danger in the area. However, Mercuria is out of time. Her mother will be dead before the new year, so she must go now. She hopes to bury her mother there, and then see about starting a new life herself. Fortunately for her there are others making the same expedition from Doissetep this very spring. This happens to work so well with her cult's plans that it is almost as if the gods themselves were behind it...

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

@callen

@Peregrine_Bjornaer

@callen

At the same time I should run the guideline question I gave Mark to make sure we're in agreement on it. It's the last ArM5 MuVi guideline. Perhaps an example is best. Let's say I want to change a CrIg5 formulaic spell I'm casting on someone into a PeMe15 spell to erase a memory. What level MuVi spell do I need to use?

It looks to me like you'd need at least a Level 15. It changes less than level +1 magnitude of the Vim spell. If it's a level 5, that's half of level 10. +1 magnitude makes it Level 15.

OK. Now, for clarity, what is the second "+1 Magnitude" for. That's what I'm trying to ascertain. I'm not in disagreement with the final level. I think it should be MuVi15, too. I agree with the change, requiring it to be MuVi10 since the +1 Magnitude in the spell's favor in the guideline is cancelled by R: Touch. You might be saying you wouldn't allow the result to be higher than the MuVi spell and so would require +1 Magnitude. However, you might be saying it's two applications of the guideline and so +1 Magnitude for that reason.

Perhaps I should also ask about changing essentially the same spells but CrIg10 to PeMe20. Is that MuVi20 (doubles the CrIg10 and at least matches PeMe20), or is that MuVi25 (double the CrIg10 and add a Magnitude for two applications of the guideline)?

I think the focus is a reasonable focus. I also think that increasing a spell by 2 magnitudes is just one kind of double quote totally transforming a spell. Note that changing a base effect, if this spell is going to be consistent with the existing MuVi +1 magnitude spell, the power gained is not under the control of the caster but under control of the story guide; I suspect the example is written this way so that it would not be possible to learn (and master!!!) A single level V spell and then use Muto vim to cast any and every spell of level XV or less; shoving power into spell to boost the effect is, rules as written, not reliable. But pushing a parameter by 2 magnitudes, such as from momentary to son, obviously works.

What is less obvious, is duration. For example, if the duration of a Muto vim spell is momentary, does the spell very quickly revert to what it normally should be, if the affected spell is the duration that is longer than momentary?

Using these as spontaneous spells is extremely clever, because rules as written make formulaic spells of this kind used generally to be very inefficient, since 1 of each kind needs to be memorized for every form desired. Nice!

Anyway,

Ken

[Marko_Markoko]

Ken is the master of all tweaky magi, so if you impressed him, I am scared

Seems that we have an entourage of magi from Doisettep coming. Perhaps that is where a call of help came from, and/or they seek influence over us

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

@Marko Markoko

Ken is the master of all tweaky magi, so if you impressed him, I am scared

Seems that we have an entourage of magi from Doisettep coming. Perhaps that is where a call of help came from, and/or they seek influence over us

Oh no, Chris is at least as good at it as I.

This is powerful, but I think that's a good thing and nothing to be scared about if you control what happens when a base effect is changed. If you are willing to have one level 5 spell serve as all level 15 spells or less, you don't even need to feel concern about that. I think you just need to decide what the rules mean for you, what you are good with and what you are not.

Anyway,

Ken

[callen]

@Ovarwa

I also think that increasing a spell by 2 magnitudes is just one kind of double quote totally transforming a spell.

That's how I'd originally read it, too. You're the first person I've heard who independently agreed with me. All others who've specified have disagreed. I'm fine with it, I just needed to know where we all stood.

@Ovarwa

Note that changing a base effect, if this spell is going to be consistent with the existing MuVi +1 magnitude spell, the power gained is not under the control of the caster but under control of the story guide;

OK. Sounds reasonable.

@Ovarwa

What is less obvious, is duration. For example, if the duration of a Muto vim spell is momentary, does the spell very quickly revert to what it normally should be, if the affected spell is the duration that is longer than momentary?

This is quite obvious when you check the errata. The MuVi spell must last as long as the spellcasting. A Momentary MuVi spell can properly adjust the duration of most other spells. But a Day (or Concentration with risk) duration MuVi spell is needed to affect a ritual.

@Ovarwa

Using these as spontaneous spells is extremely clever, because rules as written make formulaic spells of this kind used generally to be very inefficient, since 1 of each kind needs to be memorized for every form desired. Nice!

Yes, this goes along the lines of how I'm trying to use Spell Mastery to make a few spells very versatile. I have similar plans with MuVi. The plan is to develop some formulaic spells that can be diversified on an as-needed basis. Just as you said, formulaic MuVi is inefficient, so I'm trying to make it efficient.

[callen]

@Ovarwa

Oh no, Chris is at least as good at it as I.

I accidentally nearly broke the world in a pen-and-paper game with the weakest of the magi in the covenant. She had a focus in making food and beverages. We discovered that several years out of gauntlet she could supply many covenants in the Order with good enough food to entirely remove the need for longevity rituals. We decided that would be a bad thing. Who knew RAW (yes, purely RAW) cooking was so scary.

@Ovarwa

This is powerful, but I think that's a good thing and nothing to be scared about if you control what happens when a base effect is changed. If you are willing to have one level 5 spell serve as all level 15 spells or less, you don't even need to feel concern about that. I think you just need to decide what the rules mean for you, what you are good with and what you are not.

My current thought is that I could do things like changing the size of the group for Fan of Flames, change the type of Might destroyed for Demon's Eternal Oblivion, etc. I think the non-total changes (other guidelines) will be better ones to use with a lot of the total changes being out of his control.