Hey, Sorry for starting a religious war but this is the order of hermes and the dominion does oppose magic and this is something that is strong element of the order. It is amusing that the mercere is challenging the tytalus over faith considering Nerius was marched (in major part by the Tytalus) for refusing to make the subject of God and faith an element of Certamen.
Then again, None of us really know the others magical strengths (Kallista has no reputation in the order and that is deliberate so that she is under estimated).
The other thing is that this can only apply to councils here, you can't silence a mage's debate and vote in tribunal and I guarantee that you will nastier things about the church there than that bishops are men that can be swayed by worldly enticements and dominion and infernal both oppose and impede the order and are threats to keep away from us. Kallista is actually mild in that in that she SUPPORTED building the Church and helping get the new priest but only wants to minimize possible impacts on the covenant.
Hell, Rhine tribunal has the Guardians of the forest tribunal law for the sole purpose to stop spread of dominion into the forest and damaging magical auras and vis sources. (I think some of the other tribunals have the same).
Well keep one thing in mind, Odysseus is a Redcap, so unlike other Magi he has no reason to view the Divine as his 'enemy' as it were since Auras really dont have the same affect on him that they do Magi. Also he isn't trying to silence her vote, he simply wants her to stop blaspheming around him. Big difference! She's more than entitled to go, no I don't want the Church nearby, it spreads the Dominion which is bad for Magic. She doesn't have to go and compare the Divine to the Infernal.
Hell take any of my Pagan characters and they'd agree with Kallista on the whole hating the spread of the Dominion etc. So trust me, I understand exactly where she's coming from on an OOC level.
Right, you are trying to make your religious view and impose your religious upon hte covenant. The point is when it comes to using magic and effect on magic and mages: It is a straight fact that to someone dedicated to magic, both are opposed to the order's magic. Dominion is actually three times as hostile to magic as the infernal. The comparison is apt. Note, she didn't say good or evil, Good and evil doesn't apply to what she is talking about. She said they are both hostile to the order and magic and thus our enemy in a way.
That you are not a mage is one thing but your character is that ignorant on the effects of the auras after being a redcap trained to go everywhere, hear gossip and stories and such? Yeah, I can understand you don't have magic theory but order of hermes lore should show it. In fact, many mages of most houses would agree with it and might not fight a certamen to shut up this specific argument.
Oh jeeze,
You are being extra blasphemous. Look, I just switched characters because I didn't want to be manuvered into declaring WW on you. At this point, Stavros would pretty much have to! But I switched to another character because I don't want anyone misinterpreting my motives. I handed Stavros over to GiJoo, so it is in his hands now. I am now playing Simon the Apothecary, who is just as offended, but rather than declare WW he will simply ignore Kallista.
But seriously, it is as if you are trying to provoke violent reaction!
I think both sides need to back down before this covenant is torn apart before we even lay eyes on the tribunal book.
Heh, Stavros is probably going to just fade into the background Marko ( to make it easy on all of us ). However Odysseus will not ignore someone who is rude, blasphemous and suggests that he is not loyal to the Order. However once Certamen settles the dispute ( in either Magi's favor ) the issue should resolve itself no? Yes there will be some hard feelings, but not much else. Unless someone does declare WW, which unless it's profitable for Odysseus ( which it is not ) he won't do.
Theology note:
The Divine is not opposed or hostile to magic. The Divine created Magic. The Divine is an Infinite power, Magic is a finite terrestrial power. God limits magic for the good of mankind. The Jews were the first to bring the Dominion I suppose, and it provided a defense against the wild beasts of magic and the powers of corrupt sorcerers. It is not hostile towards magic, it is protective of humanity. Magic is the power of nature, the creation of God, and thus an extension of the power of God. The Divine is not opposed to anything. Rather, there are things opposed to it. The Infernal for example. God would gladly forgive and accept beings of the Infernal if they would but repent. But the Infernal opposes the Divine. There is also Holy Magic, a clear indication that God does accept magic if performed properly. Hermetic magic depends on Pagan reference and blasphemous incantations, though Christian magi tend to overlook this as unimportant. Also note that most magi in ME are Christians, and there are many Jewish and Moslems as well. Pagans are a minority in the Order.
You are trying to force Kallista to act by what you decide is Blasphemous or not blasphemous. That is grounds for a wizard war.
IT is a fact: The dominion and Infernal are both hostile to hermetic magic. Our magic resistance is lowered, our spells are penalized and even Magic based supernatural abilities are impacted by this. Point in fact: the dominion is actually three times worse for this than the infernal (magical effects are -aura in infernal and - 3x aura in dominion).
This is a fact. The dominion is not the friend of hermetic magic. THis is a reality. Kallista might not be diplomatic about it but the fact is that the order in general doesn't want dominion growing to impact and impair magical auras and vis sources. When it comes to the order, both are just as bad but infernal is actually a lesser evil in that you can go in and destroy it, you can't attack the dominion. You can have all the arguments and diplomatic fits you want about it but from the point of advancing the magical arts, the two are both negatives to magic.
You might be running an ignorant and no nothing at all about order and its views, magical effects redcap or a fanatical christian flambeau but that doesn't make what Kallista saying about impact of the two false. It doesn't make her arguing that we should be doing what we can to keep it far from the covenant and taking steps to get any priest nearby to be one that would not seek to spread dominion much.
It isn't blasphemy, it is magical reality that she is speaking. A blunt truth about how magic works. You want to wizard war her or certamen her to shut up because she doesn't want an effect worse than infernal auras spreading closer to the covenant. She will fight that to the death and yes, would go to wizard war length.
Note: Kallista didn't say they were evil, she didn't say they were good she said that both are hostile and opposition to the order and dominion worse than infernal. You are the ones that want to make that FACTUAL TRUTH into blasphemy.
Holy magic is of the Divine, it is not aligned to the magical aura, magical realm and magical characters so. So for any character that is not christian and is not going to become christian, this is reality is true.
I am sorry that you can't have characters that can accept the two negative auras to magic in the same sentence that makes you extremists, not Kallista actually.
The fact that the church advocates are going to the lengths that Nerius specifically refused to do is the most amusing fact of this. Nerius refused to accept any certeman that focused on the nature of faith and that is what got him marched and killed and here we have two christian mages ready to basically "Convert or Die".
Nope. Just one. Stavros has left the game because I don't want to be drawn into this. I am playing Simon the Apothecary now.
Other than that, I am just going to ignore how erroneous your conclusions are. Re-read my post and contemplate what I am trying to say, ratherthan taking it as an argument that you need to defend yourself against. And it isn't about Christians. The Dominion was with the Jews first, then the Christians, and now the Moslems. The Abrahmic faiths. God isn't opposed to magic, magic is opposed to God. Holy Magic isn't a Divine power. It is Magic that has the taint polished off. Solomon used Holy Magic. Magic was created by God, and God does not oppose creation.
By your own statement, hermetic magic is by its nature pagan and blasphemous. A certamen to not utter any blasphemy thus could be technically against the code. As for most mages being christians would need a reference and source rather than your assumptions.
There might be jews, christians and islamics in the order but there are also large pagan groups. House Flambeau being one of the bastions of them (Cult of Mercury and Mithraians) but not the only ones (bjornaer ancestor worship, some of christian some aren't, Many Merinita, Plenty of tytalus, lots of the Ex Misc traditions). Admittedly most Jerbiton are Christians but they are the house that can claim greatest percentage.
The order is the greatest refuge of pagans in Mythic Europe. It should not be blasphemy and attacks for a mage of the order to speak openly of the reality that infernal auras and dominion auras are opposed to hermetic magic and work against hermetic magic even if mentioning both in the same sentence among other mages of the order.
"Right, you are trying to make your religious view and impose your religious upon hte covenant."
So are you - somewhat moreso than others in the debate, from my reading.
"The point is when it comes to using magic and effect on magic and mages. . . Dominion is actually three times as hostile to magic as the infernal."
I disagree with your wording. It is 3 times more potent, but not more hostile. Hostility implies intent. The Infernal intent is always to do the terrible and unspeakable. The'intent' of the Dominion with regards Hermetic Magic is less clear.
"The comparison is apt."
I disagree for the reason I mention above and am concerned that there appears to be an absence of openness and possibility of an 'out' or compromise so early in these exchanges. I am personally entirely uncomfortable with the vehemence of your thrust on this point, both in and out of character. That said it is early doors yet so I live in hope.
Considering my character said we should help build the church and take steps to get the priest although one that would be compliant with us, two characters are attacking her because she spoke of infernal and dominion in same sentence as being hostile to our magic and discussed their effect on magic. The first walked out of the room and started looking for paper for wizard war. The second is basically trying to censor that she can't SAY anything he considers blasphemous. This is causing a very strong reaction and you better believe she won't back down.
This is very much the view of someone who dislikes anything that impairs her magic and knows: I go after a diabolist, my magic is weaker some. I just walk into a city, my magic is much weaker. Both are impediments and negatives to her magic and she will look on them the same way. To her the infernal is lesser evil because she can kill the diabolists, destroy the demons and the infernal aura will go away. She can't burn down churches, kill mundane worshippers wholesale and drive away divine aura so easily and it hurts hermetic magic a lot more and is a lot more common.
Right now the IC debate is devoid of fun. I just thought I should counsel that the disagreement between these two characters, in the very first exchange being had in character, will have a lasting effect.
It will have a lasting affect, because one of the characters has a position and manner at least one other finds highly offensive (amongst other things) and the one causing offence has in their words shown neither openness to listening and change, nor basic respect for any alternate position.
As in real life, characters are likely to react strongly to such individuals - normally finding them somewhat repulsive to associate with. Neutrals rarely side with a person with a heavy handed approach. Your character may be isolating herself from the get-go.
I'm not against in-character arguments at all (even when I find the subject matter personally uncomfortable, as in this case). Vehement disagreements are often the catalyst for a great deal of fun in a roleplaying game, but normally only after characters are settled and familiar with one another - and after they have established a good reason to wish to resolve such disagreements amicably.
I wanted to register this OOC, before it has IC consequences that result in anyone having a really dull, fun-free time.
I can see your point but covenants also generally do not start by basically saying: You can't speak about two things that oppose hermetic magic at same time. If this was a council of bishops or we were all covenant dedicated to reconciling christianity with orders, it would be one thing, but we are not.
In fact one of those raising the biggest fuss to basically CENSOR any kind of anti-dominion view is a member of the Mercurian CULT OF HEROES (a cult whose philosophy is to make men into the heroes and godlings of myth).
Ie: a pagan focused group in house Mercere.
Still I won't tell him how to play his character, but wanting to keep dominion out of magic aura, recognizing dominion hurts our magic and is one of the two things that does is something my character will say. While there might be many christian mages in the order (and what percentage is matter of debate), most tribunals and mages do not want the dominion spreading to their covenants and perhaps destroying their vis sources and magical auras.
To quote this (page 17 and 18 guardians of the forest):
this is the sort of attitude that KAllista has towards the Dominion and this became a mess because the very first issued raised was the covenant helping dominion grow, thrive and spread in the nearby village. Still she didn't oppose the building of the church but when people start threatening her because she mentioned dominion and infernal as things that impede magic, you basically started drawing line in the sand and started game off by basically telling her that couldn't speak freely about issues pertaining to magic if they opposed or had tones relating ot church and dominion that they didn't like. Sorry but this covenant isn't going to work is censorship is the first thing the other mages seek to impose on each other.
I had wanted to avoid getting involved in this OOCly, but I must admit I've been suckered in as it were.
So he's a member of the Cult of Heroes. That does not mean that he is in anyway Pagan. Heck, there are Mercurians who simply think of the 'Gods' as nothing more than powerful spirits ( Neo-Mercurians if I remember correctly ). There is no reason that such a character can't be a Christian and a member of the Cult.
A small village church will hardly spread the Dominion in a really significant way. Sure the church will probably get an Aura of 1, but thats about it. And while I understand wanting to keep the Dominion far far away from Magic Auras, the whole vis / aura destruction thing, isn't really a problem ( in this given instance ).
... Kallista started off with Blasphemy ( and lots of it! ), period. See these examples:
Kallista has the social graces and tact of an atomic bomb. How could anyone who even considers themselves marginally Catholic not take offense to such statements?
Censorship? Kallista was asked to stop committing blasphemy. So stop acting like Kallista said something like "I would prefer to limit the potential danger to our magical resources with the spread of a Dominion Aura, so perhaps we should place the Church as far from the Covenant as possible?" If she had shown even an ounce of tact or social grace then yes, I would feel sympathy for her. However from her comments she has shown nothing more than hatred of the Divine and that she was simply trying to get a rise out of Stavros because he is a former Tytalus.
Odysseus didn't say that she couldn't vote, made no threats on her life, he simply asked that she stop committing blasphemy. When she refused, he challenged her to Certamen. So I'd appreciate if you'd stop saying the he is attempting to censor Kallista as nothing of the sort happened. I feel as if you are exaggerating in an attempt to prove a point. As stated before, if she had presented her point in a polite manner ( ya know, minus the blasphemy? ) Odysseus would have been happy to have a discussion, like civilized folks. Instead she has done nothing but commit blasphemy and be antagonistic towards the Christian Magi. Tell me then, how is someone who was raised Catholic supposed to act?
Look at what her blasphemy was that every one complained about. She compared dominion to Infernal as both being detrimental to hermetic magic. THAt is it and she stood by her statements to that effect. Her comparison is apt, accurate and correct. Both auras/presenses are in opposition and detrimental to hermetic magic. She didn't even call God as evil, as devils. She spoke of them in regards to magic and in regard to how she didn't want it near the covenant to affect its magic.
Oh yeah, she wanted a priest that would not be very active. The one that started the big deal about blasphemy and censorship and such was your character, GIJoo.
You called God a "hostle power". I disagree with your conclusion that he is opposed to magi, but you do have some wiggle room there. But as opposed to magi as he is to demons? That is quite a stretch.
But you called God a "Hostile Power". That was a step too far and is really what triggered this whole fiasco.
Look, GiJoo comes from a conservative Jewish-American background, and he is making an effort to play a Catholic the est he knows how. And I seem to recal a player in another game who also had trouble understanding Christianity and caused her difficulties playing her character. Hmmm...
Look, Kallista saying these things in game is fine, and is even an admirable role-playing effort. But to reassert that these conclusions are correct OOC is sort of offensive to my Christian theology, and Joo has told me that it is upsetting to his Jewish theology. And I also findmyself going over the same arguments I was having with a fellow named Vortigern in another game.
There needs to be some room made for compromise and mutual understanding.
The comparison is that god is as opposed to mages as demon are opposed to mages. Both are being described in relations to Mages and Magic.
Yeah, Christians might not like god compared to demons but when it comes to hermetic magic, they are both hostile. Their presence hinders it.
I am from a Reform american Jewish background, most branches of Judaism do not have any demon. Satan doesn't exist. Hell doesn't exist. They aren't in any or our prayers or theology. The serpant spoke in the garden and was punished for it just as adam and eve were punished for their transaction.
Strict Catholicism at this time is actually fairly anti-magic and anti-mage although 1220 is friendlier than it was a couple years earlier under Innocent the III who was very anti-heretic, anti-jew (dictates against jews in any kind of public office lest they vent their wrath on christians (in 1215 at 4th Lateran council)), anti-muslim, etc... Before Innocent's death in 1216, you could say that the pope and catholic church (and thus God by christian preaching) was as opposed to and hostile to mages as they were demons. Honorarius is a more gentle soul and more known for healing despite that he is focused on a 5th crusade to bring holy land under christian control.
Oh I'll be the first to admit that I don't know as much about Catholics as say.. you know an actual Catholic. As Marko has pointed out I'm Jewish and the extent of my experience with the Catholic religion was dating a Catholic girl back in High School. However, if I was playing a Jewish character he would have also taken offense at such statements, so I figure I should be fine here eh Marko?
Exactly. I think it's great from an RP point of view! However I wouldn't be RPing Odysseus well if he didn't take offense to such statements.