Take the truth with many grins of salt (Spring 1234)

Play by Post Campaigns Ars Magica 5th Edition: Light of Andorra
141

Yeah, this is exactly why I am asking :slight_smile: The Brothers are well paid, but they claim the killing blow so would like some share in the spoils. They will agree to leave most materials to you if they leave, but would like to keep some of it. Actually, the armor quality is not better than chain mail, but it is AWESOME and this is an important feature when you present an honor guard to negotiate with potential employers or enemies: it says a lot of things to have your warriors wear dragonscale armor instead of mail when you talk with someone.

So, Arnau petitions the Council for this in the winter solstice. Let's see what you say :slight_smile:

Xavi

142

Carmen wants to give it to them. Roberto feels his friend Arnau has earned it. Kesara will defer to Solomon's opinion,
I should mention that Vibria, being the maga on the scene for this one, should have great influence in this matter and a share in this kill.

143

Actually, Arnau will likely have Solomon's support in this. Per the Resolutions of Charter, "The covenant lays claim to all magical items obtained by members of the council while acting at the behest of the council..." and, "The convent lays claim to unclaimed and undisputed sources of vis, mystical resources, and other assets located by the members of this covenant."

However, Arnau is NOT a member of the council nor is he a member of the covenant (at least as far as I know) and thus is not covered by these provision. Thus, unless his contract with the covenant says something different, he should be granted a fair share of the kill, prior to the Covenant claiming its due since Vibria was also present. Selim, as a member of the covenant (as assistant Steward) would not be allowed the same. At least that's how I read it.

144

Arnau was acting on behalf of the covenant when he met the wyrm. He was acting on instructions to check on the salt mines. he is not a member of the council, that is for sure, but he was acting on their indirect instructions. Seems there might be a loopole in the charter here since it was Council duty, but no magus (on council duty) was present.

The decision spins around 1) if it is Vibria that can claim everything since she was the member of the council present at the time (even if she was NOT) acting on council instructions and 2) if the warriors of the covenant are entitled to part of the share if they play a significant part on the engagement or not. Arnau is not claiming he should have it, but requesting the council to consider a reward for the Brothers as they took the brunt of the fighting in taking the wyrm down. That goes above and beyond their payment. And he knows it.

If the answer is no, he will request to buy some of the scales from the covenant stores for the same purpose (make dragonscale armor). He is quite determined to get those if he can since he likes them.

If the answer is still no, he will request to have the armours made anyway and to get to use them while the Brothers work for the covenant.

145

Yep, it's a loophole. But if Solomon is asked for his legal opinion, I think that's how he'll see it. The question, like you said, is how Vibria will present the events to the council.

But at the end of the day, Arnau and the Flame Brother's are basically independent contractors and thus are not governed by the Charter. Solomon will recommend that we write a contract between the Covenant and the Flame Brother's to alleviate any confusion in the future.

146

Yep. Carmen's motivation is indeed reward. Wyrm leather is no better than chain mail (as far as Protection/Load ratio), and the last wyrm hide we had was locked up in storage & forgotten about.
Roberto is just sticking up for his buddy and going for what he thinks is ethical.
Kesara points out to Solomon that Arnau is an employee and agent of the covenant who was operating at the command and behest of the council when the incident took place. Further, Vibria was a maga present on scene and lead the men in battle (actually Arnau did, but she is the one who gave the inspirational speech and gave the orders). Finally, the incident took place on covenant property, for we claim all of these lands as our resource. She favors reward as much as Solomon, but feels that it should be entered into our records as a reward and gift, so as to not set a bad precedent.

147

The Flame Brother soldiers are independent contractors, they work directly for Arnau as assigned by his paramilitary-warlock cult. But Arnau himself had become a direct employee of the covenant. We voted on that in the meeting of Spring 1234. Until that point, Arnau was just an associate and prospective hireling of Roberto. My long term vision and hope is for Arnau to eventually take over as the Captain and perhaps recieve an Ex-Officio vote on the council.
:mrgreen: Then maybe one day we can meet his gifted mystagogue and issue him the "Join or Die" ultimatum :smiling_imp:

148

This is all true, but the Resolutions of Charter are quite clear that in using the term, "member of the covenant," and "members of the council." Neither of these apply to employees and agents of the covenant (those should be in the charter, but that's not how it is written, hence the loophole.

In fact, having just reread the Resolutions and Charter, “Members of the Covenant” as defined in the Charter ONLY applies to Journeymen, Masters and Pontifex (ranks and membership section). There are three “classes” listed; Members (as described above), Guests (which included Protected Guests, Honored Guests and Past Masters), and Covenfolk which it explicitly states employees fall under. Thus employees are clearly NOT “members”. And in that case Selim could in theory make a claim (though he won’t since he was worthless and feels ashamed about that).

As I said, that's where Vibria's telling of the events will sway things.

The Charter states, "The covenant also lays claim to other shares of properties and portions chattels in the village of Arans and in scattered locations nearby. These including the silver mine, the orchard, and the vineyard."

So while it’s true that the incident took place on covenant land, a dragon's scales are not property (clearly meaning real property based on context) or chattel (the scales are not "movable personal property" owned by anyone), nor do they fall under the given examples of "the silver mine, the orchard, and the vineyard."

That's why I quoted the two sections on "unclaimed and undisputed sources of vis, mystical resources, and other assets," and "all magical items obtained by members of the council while acting at the behest of the council,” as they are more relevant to the situation. And as I stated, each of those provisions only cover “members of the covenant,” and “members of the council.”

149

Kesara's eyes light up and she seems alive with enthusiasm as she speaks. Ah, but the acts and actions of operatives and agents of the council are presumed to be acting by the authority and in lieu of members of the council. Say you were a mercenary general working for me, Queen Kesara. You cause damage or commit crimes, it reflects on me and I have to make restitution. If you capture a city in my name, I am the one who now rules it. Unless you turn against me. An agent of Vocis over there, if he did wrong it reflects on him and on us all. If the agent, directed by Vocis, discovers a resource, then that resource belongs to Vocis and in turn follows rules for his being a covenant member. An agent of the council is representative of all covenant members collectively as the right hand represents the body.
As for resource rights, you quote only specifically directly owned properties. The Resolutions state "The Covenant of Andorra claims Hermetic Jurisdiction over the entirety of the several parishes of Andorra. It further claims ownership and rights over any and all mystical resources and locations, and is responsible for them as well.". That includes the whole of this land, until you cross over into France or Catalonia. Which raises my concern over the rumors of an archmagus living in La Vella, but that is another concern. Now, what is the wyrm if not a "mystical resource"? Some kingdoms have specified forest lands where all wild game belongs to the crown by right. What is a wyrm if not hunting game? Do we not hold semi-regular drake hunts to thin out the population and protect mundane villagers? Do we not use these and similar monsters as a vis resource?
So you understand my position. I say distribute it equally amongst all the fighters in that battle, give the dragon stone to rnau. ut callit a Gift and Reward and set a proper precedent
Solomon gets the distinct impression that Kesara is trying to impress him and has obviously been studying law and rhetoric.

150

As much as Vibria would like to say "Well, we were investigating the loss of my coins, so technically this was my foray, and so everything we got is mine, mine, MINE muahahahaha!!!", the stash was (iirc) loot we got when we went on a covenant-authorized expedition...kinda-sorta.

Seeing as how, as the member who discovered the assets, she is entitled to one seventh of it's value, she will not ask for, say, one seventh of its hide. She will, however, ask that the harness be hers. And if that also includes part of her share of whatever else gets divvied up at the meeting, so be it...but she really wants that harness. She will sleep with it and cuddle with it like a big ol' teddy bear.

[color=red]"I agree that the Flame Brothers performed better than expected on the mission, and I would not be opposed to giving them a bonus of some kind. Perhaps if the finest artificer the Order has ever known could be persuaded to craft some armour of such quality that only he could hope to achieve for their champion, they might consider that a more than adequate reward for their efforts?"

Vibria nods, visibly impressed by Kesara's oration. She is still, however, of the opinion that the salt wyrm is Andorra's property by (Hermetic) law and its remains should be distributed slash dealt with according to the Charter's provisions.
[hr][/hr]As much as Vibria enjoys hearing the tale of her exploits (Antoni is a good story-teller, and it's nice to hear someone say something good about her instead of the catty, subtle digs she's used to hearing), there's just one little thing about the story that bugs her ever so slightly.

At the end of one story, she sidles up to him. [color=red]"You do realize the busty maga has a name, right?" she says softly (which probably comes across as a throaty purr as much as anything), the smile on her face hopefully showing that she's not upset so much as a wee bit tired of being called "the busty maga" all the time.

151

Vibria and Kesara are in totalagreement. She thinks the wyrm hide is covenant property and thinks it should be gifted to the Flame Brothers as a reward. She thinks that Antoni should share in that reward though. As for the harness, she has no Idea.
Carmen think the harness should be submitted to the Artifex for Investigation.
Roberto has lost interest and is in a hurry to get home for another hot date with his mermaid girlfriend (True Love Flaw). However, he gets an idea and whispers to Arnau "[size=85][color=red]You should dress each of the guys that were with you in different suits made of the stuff and make an elite squad of them. Call them the Wyrm Killers! Arm each guy with a different weapon and give them each a code name based on their personality or best skill.[/size]"

152

[color=red]"But...but...giant ruby! Beautiful, perfect ruby the size of my head! I have a spot picked out over one of my fireplaces and everything!"

153

Arachné's eyes widen slightly
This is interesting. We'll have to talk about it later.

:unamused:
So she's learned how to handle the oaf, it seems (italic is for thoughts)

When antoni sees Vibria come to him, he can't help but get nervous. After all, he's seen her toast a drake, and she sure looks like she could just as well burn a guy for... Whatever. But he's the Lion of Andorra, and he won't flee like some mouse. Not now that he can't escape, at least...
Aye, maga, that was just that, well, t'tell the truth, most people here don't know your name, but all have noticed your... beauty. I figured it'd be easier that way, instead of stopping my tale to explain it all. But do no worry: The Lion of Andorra shall make sure they all know who you are

(In fact, he never took the time to learn the magi's names. They're all distant figures to him, save Roberto. Also, this is in part Vibria's judged unfairly coming back at her, in a bit of sexism)

154

Oh, didn't know that Vibria has jusged unfairly. I will have Arnau looking down on her for her meagre performance against the drake, then.

155

Solomon nods and smiles to Kesara, “Your interpretation is very astute. As the dragon’s corpse resides within the boundary of the lands the covenant claims, all mystical resources associated with it, which would be everything, would be covenant property. As such, Arnau and his Flame Brothers have no official right to the dragon’s scales, or any other part of the creature for that matter.

I agree that we should gift some portion of the dragon’s scales to Arnau to be distributed amongst his troops for their actions in support of the covenant. I am also okay with gifting the Dragon Stone to Arnau as well. However, I would ask for our Marshall to consider the utility of these items and ensure that the providing these to the Flame Brother’s will not significantly decrement our own capabilities.”

156

Hearing the praise of her mentor causes Kesara's heart to swell with bride and she gains a Confidence point :smiley: