Talismans In General and Numerologist's Books

So, it seems to me that a talisman, able as it is to ignore the size/material restrictions (the limit for this being your magic theoryx2 as vis expense per season) and instead having capacity based off of your best arts, allows you to have pretty cool shape/material combinations, with attunements limited to the number of items you can have in a composite item as determined by your Magic Theory.

So, for example, Renoir's magic theory is only a 6 - not enough to make a magical suit of armor with multiple invested powers.
However, he can ignore his MT when making a suit of armor as a talisman, and furthermore can trick it out a bit with some other materials/shapes to add on potential future attunement bonuses, totalling no more than his magic theory in total shapes/forms. If I'm interpreting this correctly, I like this, as it makes for cooler talismans, and that seems awesome.

That said, is there any reason a magus with Hermetic Numerology can't open a Greater Numerologist's Book as his Talisman?

Assuming the magus in question has 5 MT, he can consider the paper, wooden boards (hickory and hornbeam, for two options), clasps of brass, and with a disc of clear glass set within the cover to all be part of his complex item. The limit to each bonus is his MT, and he only unlocks one attunement per seasons he invests a power in the talisman.

Before Helios Exelcis starts opening the Timaeus as a Talisman Greater Numerologist's Book, I wanted to make sure I had wrapped my head around this aspect of talismans sidestepping the normal vis/size/material issue that plagues most starting wizards.

Am I incorrect in any of this?

Thanks again!


If you can have an oaken staff with basalt cabechons and a ruby and quicksilver and pinfeathers and a depiction of lightning... then yeah, I see no problem with a book with as many "elements".

Limit to the components* themselves is still MT when the Talisman is opened. But yeah, parts is parts.

(* The ones the magi considers important - there could be more elements as part of the whole assembly, but those don't count as "components" for later attuning.)


Except that MT*2 still limits the amount of vis the magus can handle per season. The magus can still invest lots of vis in the Talisman, it just takes a few seasons.

Materials, yes. Shapes.... maybe. Most other shapes will be incompatible with the talisman already being a suit of armor. (It cannot also be a staff and a boat.)

Totalling no more than his MT in bonuses from shapes/materials that can be applied to an enchantment in the talisman, and totalling no more individual materials than his MT. A magus with MT 6 who enchants a ring of iron, gold and silver, set with a diamond, a ruby and a pearl is fine, even though the ring also is a ring and is jewelry.


The number of materials is limited by MT. The effective bonus that can be applied to an enchantment is limited by MT, though multiple bonuses can be added to reach this limit. The bonus that can be applied to spellcasting comes from one
single property that has been attuned, and cannot exceed MT. The bonuses are not truncated; when MT rises, more of the bonus can be used.

Boosting MT is still a good thing, to gain more materials. A book can easily accomodate multiple materials, ranging from exotic inks to gems on the cover.

But yes, this works just fine, and makes a lot of sense; why go for a lesser book when the greater book is.... greater? I expect that your first enchantment will be something that lets the book change size so you can carry it around. Or maybe the first enchantment is something to protect that fragile book so you can take it where you want to go without fear....

How has your Numerology been working for you? Do you find Rotes useful?



Hello Ken!

The fine detail you note is what I understand as well, though did not go into explicit detail on. Thanks for clarifying. I'm a little loser with shapes, as I allow symbolic representations to work if the player can sell me on the idea and the troupe agrees. This allows what might be a dominant decoration to have some magical purpose (a shield with a crown embossed, for example, might be allowed to take the crown attunement, or a partial bonus if the troupe sees fit).

As for rotes: Helios has as yet to learn any, but will be in the next season. He's focusing on a suite of aura strength and vis detection rotes in preparation for his pilgrimage to Samos as part of his second level of initiation preparations.



nod RAW, these representations require a virtue to be used, and then grant 1/2 the value of the original bonus.



Hm, interesting. What's the virtue? No one's ever taken advantage of this thought. I think we cribbed it from somewhere on the forum.



There are a few virtues that grant this as a side effect. Craft Amulets from the Jewish section of RoP:D allows it; the Crafting magi of the Ex Misc tradition can do it, and I vaguely remember one more, but am not certain.



Ah, thanks.

Update on rotes:

The magus numerologist created a bunch tonight.

4 rotes, one for each realm, to determine the strength of the aura you're in.

Sense the Nature of Vis and Scales of the Magical Weight as rotes.

Scent of Magical Places InVi5: a momentary personal spell targeting sense of smell, that allows you to smell a magical regio's boundary.

Spark of Solomon's Might InVi2: Touch, Momentary, individual - If you reach out to touch an item that possesses a magnitude 10 or higher spell upon it, a spark vaults from palm to target.

So, a nice suite of aura/vis/magic informational spells.

Wow. I play a Jerbiton in a Constantinople based saga, and he wants to initiate the Numerology virtue. And these rotes are a quite good examples of what he'd want to put in it in time. Great inspiration.

Indeed. He made all of those in a season. I'm looking forward to seeing what else he comes up with.


While perusing the rules last night, I noticed that I said something incorrect in this thread. I want to remedy that:

One can only attune an invested device as Talisman. That is, even though a Talisman can hold lots of vis, it is not a Talisman until it is attuned, and it cannot be attuned until it is stuffed with vis. Thus, the Greater Numerologist's Book does require MT8.

In brief:

  1. Create a fancy schmancy book, or commission one.
  2. Invest it with vis.
  3. Make it your Talisman.



Oh... fiddle. I wish I had caught that as well. Hrm. Well, I'm going to have to handwave or houserule that as the ship has sailed, so to speak.

In truth, I sort of liked the idea that talismans could be cooler than your run of the mill enchanted device in their construction.

Well, I'll let the group know the correct rules, but as two talismans have been made under the prior idea, I'm going to let them stand and other followup talismans, and assume it will not break the game in any meaningful way.

As an example of what has been made:

I should be more giving in the Magic Theory book department. After 10 years, three of the magi have hit MT 6 - I guess there should be a faster route towards a good magical theory for a numerologist... or maybe I'm assuming a Greater Numerologist's book as a talisman should be doable by someone without a lot of MT, as opposed to straight enchantment per the RAW.

Gah, I hate messing up the rules.

Thanks, Ken!



Nothing too terrible, especially if priority is given toward increasing MT, bringing things into line soon enough. Magic Theory is very good to have anyway.

They can be. In most cases, it isn't necessary to open the whole book. An item with multiple components, such as a book with gems embedded in the cover, can have only one component invested. If it is then made into a Talisman, the magus can keep adding vis.

The Mystery requires a large book to be invested, so it's more about the Mystery than the Talisman.

I think that's a good choice. It doesn't really break things, unless someone did something outrageous.

These don't seem to break anything.

I don't see why Numerologists ought to be any better at MT than other magi.

Maybe. But that's why they have a lesser book.

Note that Puissant MT is probably the best virtue for doing lab work. Inventive Genius provides +3 for inventing stuff, but P(MT) provides a +2 to everything. Distilling vis, using someone else's lab text, inventing spells, everything, and also boosts the vis use limit.

AM rules are finicky and baroque. It happens to everyone.

Thanks, Ken!

chuckle Thank you! I'm not used to being thanked for raining on a parade, and graciousness online is always a refreshing gift.



Na. Just say the aura of the Covenant has an unusual feature(Boon) of giving a bonus to MT when enchanting...This could also cause a hook, when other magi find out, they start renting rooms out (and complaining about the lack of this or that.. :smiling_imp: )