Teleportation and req (spin-off of Hypermobile Magi)

Ok, casting requisites were mentioned in the "Hypermobile Magi" thread, when I whined about abuse of a Range: Sight teleport spell. Anyway, It'd apply for all types, if is indeed does.

So the basic Rego Corpus, does it just transport yourself? Does it include a miniscule amount of gear, those carried or held closely, the clothes worn, the Talisman?
Well, the Talisman is very much connected to you, so that'd easily come along.
Clothes? Perhaps for the sake of simplicity and dignity...But consider the problems shapeshifters and Bjornaer have, they don't get any short cuts.

And how much gear should be allowed to be included, without the need for an additional magnitude, for added complexity/power? A full back pack? A cat familiar sitting on your shoulder? Complete war gear, with full chain mail, helmet, shield, battleaxe and back-up gladius? All the Verditius' casting tools?

And how about those teleport effects in items? Since casting requisites don't apply to the use of items, should the original effect have had included all those Terram, Herbam, Animal etc. requisites when calculating Lab Totals for Imbuing?

IMHO this is added complexity and irritation, but I like it anyway. It limits some of the more abusive powers.

What say you, fellow Ars Magica..cians... ???

Target "Individual" that is used in most teleport spells includes target itself, his clothes and and carried equipment. How each Troupe interpretes "carried equipment" is each Troupe's decision. I would not consider Familiar "equipment" under most circumstances, but perhaps a mouse familiar or other miniscule thing might be transportable as 'carried equipment' - but probably not, since familiar isn't part of the caster like his Talisman is.

If you want an outside books solution to determine what can and cannot be transported via teleportation you might consider using Encumbrance. Perhaps like: "Base Teleport spell can carry the target and whatever he can effortlessly carry with his own strength." Ie: Strength 3 character could carry Load of six, but not seven. (I know Strength 3 character won't get any encumbrance penalty with Load 9 either, but it isn't 'effortless' anymore in my mind.) Negative Strength can carry their unencumbering clothes and a small number of small items.

About Teleportation Magic Items I won't say much since we havent' stumbled upon such in our sagas yet. Actually none of the PC magi has even teleported once yet. Also please consider that all of the above is written without consulting the books, so something might be incorrect; especially about "carried equipment".

Edit from here on: (I really cannot do this without editing few moments after submitting the first time):

I don't think I will be requiring requisites for casting teleportation spells. They are difficult enough without them, but of course if someone intends to teleport a cube of steel with Corporem spell that will fail. If that Cube is carried by a huge man with lots of muscles I might allow it go with him as 'carried equipment'.

IIRC, the Seven League Stride specifically says you need casting requisites to teleport personal gear. This would seem to apply to other teleport spells, then - I would disallow any gear (including cloths) without requisites. I might allow one's Talisman, as it is really a part of yourself.

It seems that I am not the only one with memory problems. It seems that you don't recall correctly either. I consulted a friend and he checked both Seven League Stride and Leap of Homecoming. Neither spell says nothing about requisites.

OTOH, the more recent Wizard's Leap (HoH: S) clearly states that you need them.

Then, of course, this is a milleage question.

IMO, I prefer the "without requisites" option, as the reverse makes teleport spells really difficult if you don't want to appear naked, but find the "requisites" option much more logical within the context of the rules, coherent as well with shapeshift spells. Thus, I'd require them, save for the talisman.

My troupe ruled that target individual includes most of someone's gear. (even full battle gear) When there is munchkinning involved ("This wagon here is part of my gear.") we'll custom rule on that case.
We don't want to include too many requisites either. IMO the teleporting spells are difficult enough already. (my magus being the only one who's included one in his talisman)

The magi will face enough problems with this teleporting:

  • you suddenly appear
  • you're alone (unless you have a 3 mags higher spell)
  • if its not a personal spell (designed for target), the target will get a warping point per casting
  • botches are especially nasty

IMHO most covenants wont like it if you teleport to the vicinity of their Aegis, since it draws way too much attention from the neighbours.

So: teleporting can be a fun part of your game if you keep some social pressure on overuse.

You should keep in mind that Teleporting, once introduced into the game tends to change the dynamic to something less Medieval, as instantaneous travel would be almost out of concept for someone of that age. It also tends to seperate a group of magi if one of them is a ReCo expert, so from a SG point of view this can disrupt the adventure they carefully prepared for. It can also be less fun for the troupe...

With all that being said, in AM5 p.114-115 in the sections on Requisites & Casting Requisites, you can see the clear intent to limit complex spells to require requisites. Now the primary purpose of a ReCo spell is to transport a person in this case, so that is completely appropriate, it is not a sword moving spell or a papyrus scroll moving spell, etc. Luckily the writers came up with a little bit of flexibility in allowing you to add a Casting requisite "on the fly" to make the spell more flexible so that you can teleport in with a sword in your hand, or to grab that vellum based book you are about to steal and teleport away with...

Spells that let you transform into an animal already have [full] requisites, so we have ruled that items of that requisite can be included, so animal based leather can be included without extra 'cost", etc...

my 2 cents, hop that helps

I have always included requisites for teleporting or shapechanging if the character wants to take anything else along. It does limit teleportation and shapeshifting as used for transport. Mages like to have clothes.
I always allowed the talisman to go along, and I have seen games which allow any enchanted item without requisites which lead to several magi enchanting some clothes.

one unforseen consequence of this was the Necromancer PC who chose to avoid the requisite issue as her animal and herbam scores where very poot by endulging in customised tailoring :smiling_imp:

hmmm, do you need a Vim req to bring your Vis with you, or do you need reqs from all the arts to which the vis relates?

I think if you need reqs, you have quite few people teleporting, that could be your style, if you do not need reqs, expect people to teleport soon. (but by kidnapping the one that can teleport and then crippling his ability to teleport (by whacking him on the head or something), you migh make it less interesting...)

Yes, of course. You don't need to learn a ReCo version with full requisites, just the basic one, and you add Te, He... when needed/desired.

IMO, both could work: Vim requisite for vis, or Ignem requisite for Ignem vis, for exemple.

Not exactly. You can still have a lot of teleportation, but they'll travel around naked, or clothed in illusions.

As far as I know, only Wizard's Leap has this restriction. I think it is lame, and believe the only reason it was put in there is to make the low level easier to swallow. But in any case, level 15 should be of little difficulty even with Art scores of 0. You only need a 5 to succeed, and if you have the Stalwart Casting Mastery you won't loose fatigue from rolling low.

Given how difficult teleportation is, combined with the potentially nasty consequences of bollocksing a Finesse roll, I don't think that it can be called "too easy".

The analogy to shape-changing to justify requisites seems dubious to me. When a mage teleports, he moves his body and drags along with it the things associated with it. He's changing the location, in exactly the same way that he would is he used ReCo to levitate whilst wearing clothing, save that it's instantaneous travel. When he shapechanges, he also has to change the clothes - their shape is not naturally predicated by that of their wearer. Their location is. Naturally, a magus could choose to teleport out of his clothes, but getting undressed in a hurry is generally easier to achieve in other ways.

On the other hand, to bring something the magus cannot normally move or carry would require a requisite. If you can lift it, I'd say that you can teleport it without a requisite. You could steal a statuette but not a boulder.

The whole idea of this thread, was to continue the discussion of problems concerning too easy travel.

So there are no RAW to support the need for heavy restrictions in the way of requisites. But it is also very ill defined, how much excately can be moved along.
Sure, I see the difference about changing the body in shape, and having the clothes not follow along, and then moving the body, with the clothes following. However, teleportation isn't (or is it?) like levitation. The body magically disappears from one place and appears another. Whether the clothes "logically" (I mean in the sense of the logic of magic!) would be dragged along is up to debate. Levitation is movement in Line Of Sight, yes, stuff is dragged along. IMHO large and heavy objects carried might be dropped, since they're virtually wrested from your hands, by you moving while they don't.

I think I'll rule, than Talismans are naturally carried along. Clothes worn, plus small objects held in hands or like jewelry also, since their mass is neglible. But full war gear is IMHO too much, and I'd House Rule this to include a Casting Requisite. Anything larger than this, would require an extended version of the spell, with a true requisite (Terram most likely) and an added magnitude.

Concerning the safety of teleporting, I'll perhaps enforce Finesse rolls. If you're blinking away in the middel of a fight, teleporting at Range: Sight in a cramped cave or dense forest, it could be tricky.

Tragically, this only means anything in times of stress and drama. It's actually all the casual and day to day uses that bother me. Because a lot of stories could be short-curcuited by letting the PC magi check up on a lot of things too easily and quickly. Stories where rumours and clues suggest imminent threats are lost, as they don't have to venture out of the sancti for serious amounts of time to investigate. I like stories where the magi have to decide whether their current Lab projects are more important than trying to find out if a rumour is important, whether they want to leave the solution of a problem (and any potential loot or prestige) to their Soldales.

And why should there be any specific RAW on it?

This discussion mirrors some similar discussions on MR and penetration - that the most obvious answer is often-overlooked because people are looking for specific explicit RAW when the generic general ones are quite clear. Nothing hints that anything should be exempt from the need for requisites, so why would a spell on teleportation need to state so specifically for the general rule to apply?

I readily admit that I forgot the requisites the first times we used the Seven-leaged, but we've remedied that later on and I wouldnt want it any other way. Partly because I cherish and keep to the generic flat-line approach to the mechanics of magic (both in term of gaming crunch and in terms of in-character grasp of magic theory). Also I don't think this is all about what is more easy on (or to) the players, but what brings about the stories I want to tell, and I want to tell stories where the setting influences the choices made by the characters living in it - this is what makes a world come alive! In the case of requisites for teleportation it could influence a magus in the direction of wearing clothes and accesories made from as few different realms as possible (to limit the loss of CT to various requisites) and it creates an interesting pull toward a sort of purism...

In short, anyones milages my vary, but personally I do enforce requisites on teleportation for various reasons. I would however allow, as some suggested, that something as personal as a talisman might be allowed without requisites.

[size=75]P.S.: Both living in Aarhus and the convention of the year starting today, might we be meeting at Fastaval, Ultraviolet? If so, we might share a pint in the café or the bar and strike up a conversation on the miniscules of the arts of Rego and Corpus and Ars Magica in general (if you are going - and since I'm not likely to pass by these forums beforehand, then I'm sure you can get my cell phone number at the information desk at the con - my last name is Nybo)? I also hope the convention will be a place to find the new A&A book :smiling_imp:

P.P.S.: To anyone else - still hoping to bump into some of you at the Grand Tribunal (I've started saving for it....).[/size]