(edit crossposted, deleted reposted below)
The spell doesnt need to be fixed - only the need to remember the Casting Requisites (which might require some study to improve the Arts involved or some planning of what to wear). I agree on the adjustment and continuity. Two things play a major role in this however. The PC all played apprenticed for the first 2 years of the campaign - during which most of the planning of their downtime seasons were left to me. The only player knowing a ReCo teleport is the player who upon becoming proper Magus put the least effort into taking over the process of the downtime (actually pratically none), so he is in no way 'surprised' since his only interest was to "learn all the ReCo and PeCo lab texts available in the covenant library". Secondly we started our saga prior to the 5th edition, and we have been adapting to it in strides, but just recently we decided that it was about time to go all out 5th edition - which implies that I'll meet with them all and work through the adaption, and this would also be a opportunity to handle such issues. On the other hand that adaption will require much more inginuity in how to make the changes in rule mechanic without changing the history of the saga, which is very high on our agenda.
(crosspost hell)
None taken, np, just emphasizing that it was argument by exaggeration, by counter-example, not my belief.
[quote="Furion Transsanus"]
... I just wanted to return to ... teleporting a man with a bottle of wine (or barrel for that matter).
Is holding objects in your hands (larger ones especially) alone not more a challenge - since it in itself contradicts the target Individual a bit? The case of the content inside of less importance?
... it seems to me that ... Erik is arguing whether the liquid can be effected with the same teleportation spell as the bottle/barrel or not. Cuchulainshound is arguing whether this effect requires a Casting Requisite or not (Aquam). Am I off track?
[/quote]
Yes and no.
I was arguing against "overly rigid" (aka "anal") casting requirements. Imo RegoCorpus should transport a person, what they wear, and what they hold (within reason). [u]Where that reason ends[/u] was the point with the wine barrel.
Otoh, if a SG is worried about T-Port abuse, then rigidly enforcing casting requirements would mean that any T-Port worth having would require Terram and Herbam and Animal requirements, just for the most common clothing/acoutrements, and adding Aquam wouldn't hurt for potions/inks/drinks/etc. If you ever want to t-port with a lamp or torch, Ignem, and quite possibly any temporary magical effect would be lost without Vim. That leaves only Aurum, Mentem, and Imagonem as "unnecessary", making an "all purpose" t-port quite a bit more challenging.
[u]However[/u], note that that "fully requisited" spell could then t-port [u]anything[/u], including the aforementioned barrel of wine. By ignoring the casting requirements, "things" can only be t-ported with that spell if someone is willing to carry them (and the GM approves that they are not so large/separate that they are no longer part of the basic "individual" person.)
As a devious SG, I would be happy winking at the requirements for t-porting a person and their basic gear, for the joy of not allowing [i]the same spell[/i] to transport animals, weapons, stone blocks, logs, raw gallons of water or oil, and anything else that might cross the players' minds. :wink:I am not worried about T-Port abuse. That is another thread. Nor is it to me in this case a question about balance. I am however strongly inclined toward upkeeping universal rules. I agree that clothes etc. can be the same target (Individual) as the person in terms of only needing one spell, but I disagree that such a spell can move anything but the Forms of the spell and its casting requisites. Not out of fear of abuse, but out of the integrity of the setting - in this case the theory of hermetic magic (the mutual exclusiveness of the Forms). In that light and for those reasons I will always choose the 'path of rigidness'.
I think the notion of the "all purpose" teleport is somewhat off the mark. None of the above influences anyones ability to learn or invent a teleport spell, the challenge is only a problem when casting it - and then only the appropriate Forms - and enforcing the setting (the Forms) to me not only keeps the setting alive and tangible, it creates some interesting challenges. Either the magus has to study more Forms instead of focusing to much, or he has to consider what he wears in terms of magic theory. And not bringing a lit torch if not an Ignem master is only interesting - then he would have to bring the torch and lit there.
Cuchulainshound,
you need not to develop a more complex spell to cast it with casting requisites. And neither does using casting requisites for a ReCo spell allow you to teleport a barrel of wine with it. I am not sure where you got those ideas, so I just direct you to the definition of casting requisites on ArM5 p.115 and the definition of the Target 'Individual' on ArM5 p.112 to check. If there is something you don't understand, feel free to ask.
Kind regards,
Berengar
(double post)
But they must be considered together, balance and universal rules, lest one is achieved at the expense of the other. If that is not a consideration in your view, then never mind.
That again gets back to what I said about "overly rigid"- we want a system of magic to work perfectly, but there will always be some holes in it. Unless we want to create a spell generation system where we "proportion" what % is Corpus, and what % is "other requisites", then the spell to t-port a man & clothes is the same as a spell to t-port pure clothing, or etc - and that's what we have to work with.
So, while it feels more elegant to require those extra arts to account for the wool pants, a bronze medallion and linen shirt, because the spell makes no distinction (here) between "ReCo (w/ An, He, & Te req's)" and "ReCo/An/He/Te", it may be self-defeating in the long run to mandate the latter spell, which in effect bans the (far simpler) former, depending on how you see it (see below.)
As always, ymmv.
[quote="Berengar"]
Cuchulainshound,
you need not to develop a more complex spell to cast it with casting requisites. And neither does using casting requisites for a ReCo spell allow you to teleport a barrel of wine with it. ...
. If there is something you don't understand, feel free to ask.
Kind regards
[/quote]
The relevant rules on requisites, which are found on page [u]114[/u] (not 115), read as follows:
[i]...There are two kinds of requisite... The second adds an effect to a spell... As a general rule of thumb, if the spell would still do something without the requisite... but would do significantly less, then [u]each requisite adds at least one magnitude[/u] to the level of the spell...[/i]
Now at first glance it may seem that this is not the case here, that the effects added by the requisite (teleporting a person with clothing etc) are not a more significant effect than the base (teleporting a naked person). But I see it otherwise.
The base Corpus spell teleports a person- the spell with requisites teleports pretty much [i]anything[/i]*, at least as far as that fits within the forms in question. I see the former spell, able to teleport only "persons" (with or without accoutrements), as doing "significantly less" than the latter, able to teleport pretty much anything one is likely to encounter. A spell that can teleport a man with a linen shirt, leather pants and a silver buckle is far less than a spell that can teleport that same man, or a wolf, or a large boulder, or a log, or a chest of gold, or etc., etc., etc.. (A spell with the range of "self" would, notably, not fall under this same consideration.)
[i](* A mage could choose to define their high-magnitude ReCoAnHeTe spell as only teleporting persons, but why would they?)[/i]
Now, you could argue that if the mage wishes to define the spell as effecting only "persons & their gear", no additional magnitudes need be enforced, and I'd agree. But then, regardless of that point, any spell that requires high scores in several Forms is, de facto, more difficult for most magi than one that requires the same score in only one, and that is, again, a "more complex" proposition, most would agree- tho' not you, apparently.
If there is something you don't understand, I don't know what to suggest. Really, I don't. Except to read the rules as written before posting, and perhaps lose the (ironically) condescending tone, thanks. Kind regards.And that's exactly how it is. If you wish to MuCo(An) a person and his clothes into a wolf, you just add casting requisites (ArM5 p.132). If you wish to ReTe a scythe with a wooden handle, you add a He casting requisite (ArM5 p.155). And so on.
Adding casting requisites (described on ArM5 p.115) can of course not change the spell level, as it is not even figured into the spell statistics (both spelled out on p.115, and followed through in the examples I gave above, and many others).
So you wish to add requisites into the spell statistics, which are quite different from casting requisites. This is not necessary to teleport a person with its clothing, as explained above.
Obviously. Nobody contested that ever.
Only as long as you either disregard or misapply (so far I cannot find out which of both) casting requisites, despite the spelled out rules and the many examples.
Kind regards,
Berengar
I think there are some misunderstandings floating around and that we might be missing each others points. I'll try from scratch.
You emphasize my comment on universal rules, but my most important message in that post was the integrity of the setting. In relation to this the mutual exclusiveness of the Forms.
In this regard I think that the essence of this debate demands a very clear distinction between a Requisite and a Casting Requisite. They are very alike in their mechanics, but in other crucial terms they are very different. In the above I have only been arguing in favour of needing Casting Requisites, but I get the impression that your are arguing the need for a Requisite or not.
Adding a Casting Requisite when casting the spell does not demand you to use another spell, nor having invented the spell with this in mind. The Spell is the same no matter what other Forms might influence the Casting Total in a given situation. A spell to teleport a man is a ReCo. As that man is an Individual Target, which is a distinction unrelated to its Form or Forms, such things as his clothes might be teleported with him. The spell stays the exactly the same, it is still a plain ReCo effect, and it Penetrates and is Resisted as a Corpus spell. But you can teleport such things with him (as long as they qualify for being a Individual target) but your Casting Score will be adjusted in relation to the relevant Forms.
On the other hand, the ReCo teleport can only be used to teleport a man (and what can be considered part of him in terms of being an Individual target), but for most other things you might want to teleport a generel ReTe spell will do fine - and then use whatever Casting Requisites needed for each and every time you want to teleport an object.
Concerning the balance and universality - I only remarked that I'm in favour of universal rules and that that was my calling in this case (due to the mentioned integrity of the setting). I did however not stress the universality as something in a trade off with balance, because I in fact do not see my take on this issue the least unbalancing.
After reading this I can imagine many ReCo masters with shoes, clothes, armor, tools ect made of human hair, bones, skin ect. 
The Human Skin Suit Talisman. 
Yes - the poor Bjornar Traumacus does... Offcourse, he is a special case... (teleports with a power that only works in his owl form - and can't change his clothing along with his form).
Other than that I'd agree with useing casting requisites for items carried/worn...