The 400-year-old Sahir

An issue that keeps coming up over and over is whether Sahirs with Solomonic Alchemy and/or Physic can indeed cheat death-by-old-age essentially forever. tC&tC suggests this is not the case, and I believe I saw on the forum Erik Dahl himself posting that this was not his intent, nor what he thinks the RAW yields. This thread is devoted to exploring this issue "experimentally". I shall create a Companion-level (i.e. UnGifted Sahir), and advance him in 20 year intervals over 400 years. I chose 400 years both because that's how old a Sahir born in the early years of the Order of Suleiman would be in 1220, and because I'm honestly too lazy to do more :slight_smile:

Let me stress that I shall strive to follow the RAW as closely as possible. Of course, rules are sometimes unclear, so I guess I'll be making some judgement calls. One important judgement call concerns how often a Sahir ends up in Fatra Banya - while the RAW tell us that Sahirs (as Hermetic magi and most other supernatural traditions) gain on average 2 Warping points/year, we are never told how many Fatra Banya/Twilight episodes are actually involved. To keep things simple, I'll assume one Fatra Banya episode every 20 years (i.e. every "advancement" of the Sahir) with the Warping points it involves already accounted by the 2 /year average.

I would also stress that I shall try to make a believable character, and not one "munchkinistically" devoted to long life.
I shall take as die rolls the sequence of decimal digits of pi (so 3,1,4,1,5...).

To keep the thread "clean", I would ask anyone interested in discussing the character to post in this other thread.

Rashid the ugly, weaponsmith, age 20

Characteristics: Int +2, Per +1, Pre +1, Com +1, Str +3, Sta +1, Dex 0, Qik -3
Age: 20 ("physical" & apparent)
Warping Score: 1(5)
Confidence Score: 1(3)
Virtues and Flaws: Craftsman, Sahir, Sihr (Magic), Solomonic Alchemy, Affinity with Weaponsmithing, Mythic Weaponsmith x2*, Second Sight, Ambitious (Major - to reach legendary fame as a weaponsmith), Poor, Disfigured (just really ugly), Oversensitive (Criticism of his work), True Love (Minor), Unspecialized
Abilities: Arabic 5, Area Lore (local) 1, Artes Liberales 1, Athletics 1, Awareness 1, Bargain 1, Charm 1, Concentration 1, Craft: Weaponsmith 7, Finesse 1, Leadership 2, Magic Lore 1, Penetration 1, Philosophiae 1, Second Sight 1, True Names of 5 Magic Spirits**
Magic: Sihr 8, Alchemy 3
Personality Traits: Ambitious +6, True Love +3, Lazy -2

*Mythic Weaponsmith (from Grogs) allow Rashid to make Wondrous Items with his Weaponsmith ability; having taken the Virtue twice, he can create effects that fall under the Forms of Corpus and Terram.

**The True Names are those of:
Aisha, Rashid's True Love (Might 25)
Jafar, Aisha's father (Might 35), a secret that Aisha has stolen for Rashid
Ghassam, a powerful jinn smith (Might 20)
Al-Reeh, a spirit of wind and secrets (Might 10)
Al-Tajer, a jinni merchant (Might 10)

Rashid was born on the 198th year of the Hegira, the fifth child and only son of a gifted weaponsmith. A number of financial disasters struck Rashid's family, so after providing dowries for Rashid's four sisters and ensuring Rashid received an education at the local house of wisdom, his father died leaving him with little more than his workshop. Still, it is a fine inheritance in the hands of a young man with talent and passion (some would say obsession) for his craft. Rashid has recently fallen in love with the daughter of a mysterious, foreign prince (in fact, a powerful lord of the jinn). Although Rashid is just a (poor) commoner, and really really ugly, the jinniyya, a powerful sorceress in her own right, reciprocates his love and is determined to help him win her hand from her father.

I am assuming Rashid joined the local house of wisdom at age 15, and has started accruing warping points (2/year) since then. So, he starts with 10 warping points, and has gained Speak Arabic 5 and 45xp during his first 5 years, 100(=10 x 10) more xp over his next 15 years, and 75 (=15 x 5) more xp over his last 5 years. I am assuming Rashid just inherited his workshop, so he starts with 0 labor points accumulated; and that he will devolve 1/4 of his disposable income to the House of Wisdom (this is in line with the fact that for a Sahir a Characteristic + Professional skill of 6 is sufficient to earn his living).

How does Rashid spend his next 20 years?

First of all, labor. Rashid has to earn a living. With a skill of 7 and a characteristic of 3, working 3 seasons/year, he's making a hefty 60 labor points/year, 36 of which are spent on his livelihood. So over the course of 5 years he saves the 24 x 5 = 120 labor points necessary to buy off the Poor Flaw. During these 5 years, he also invests 5 xp/year into his Craft skill (which his Affinity increases to 8), so at the end of them his skill reaches 8.

A bit of a workaholic, Rashid keeps working as if he were still Poor, accruing xp in a Miserly Reputation (1/year). Just before his Reputation starts to really suffer (i.e. when his Reputation score is 0(4)) he realizes the problem, and slows down (he'll eventually buy off those xp with generous donations). During these 4 years he earned a whopping (11 x 3) x 3 = 99 labor points/year. Spending 36/year on his livelihood, he still managed to "save" 63 x 4 = 252 labor points. After he slows down, he earns 66 labor points/year, of which he "saves" 30. So in 4 more years he is Wealthy - with 12 more labor points saved, which he starts to put aside for his workshop. 3 more years (yielding 30 x 3 = 90 more labor points), and Rashid gets a +1 Innovation to his Workshop, spending 100 labor points and retaining 12+90-100 = 2 labor points. Rashid now has a Workshop total of 12, so he gains 1 xp per year in a Reputation as a fine Weaponsmith. 4 more years pass, at the end of which Rashid has 132 labor points.

Next, experience. Rashid gains 15xp year for his first 5 years, being Poor. He keeps gaining 15xp year for his next 4 years, since he's working 3 seasons/year as a Poor craftsman would. He then earns 20xp year for the next 4 years, and finally gains 25xp/year for the remaining 7 years, having achieved Wealth. These are spent as follows (for his Craft Ability, in which he has an affinity, I'll write e.g. 5+3 xp to mean he "spends" 5, which are "boosted" to 8 by the Affinity):

1st year: 5+3 on Craft, 10 on Bargain
2nd year: 5+3 on Craft, 10 on Area Lore
3rd year: 5+3 on Craft, 10 on Sihr
4th year: 5+3 on Craft, 10 on Sihr
5th year: 5+3 on Craft, 10 on Sihr

6th year: 1+1 on Craft, 14 on Sihr
7th year: 1+1 on Craft, 14 on Sihr
8th year: 1+1 on Craft, 14 on Sihr
9th year: 1+1 on Craft, 14 on Sihr
10th year: 1+1 on Craft, 14 on Sihr, 5 on Alchemy

11th year: 1+1 on Craft, 19 on Alchemy
12th year: 1+1 on Craft, 19 on Alchemy
13th year: 1+1 on Craft 19 on Alchemy
14th year: 10 on Alchemy, 10 on Second Sight, 5 on Medicine

This brings Rashid scores up to Area Lore 2, Bargain 2, Craft 8 (16), Medicine 1, Second Sight 2, Sihr 16, and Alchemy 12.
On the 15th year Rashid will turn 35. We'll look at his activities in the next post.

On the 15th year (that of his 35th birthday) Rashid puts the magical skills he has cultivated to the test, and spends his 3 free seasons on lab activities (thus, no xp according to the rules). I assume that his House of Wisdom allows him the use of a "normal" laboratory (push come to shove, now that he's wealthy he could hire someone to do it). On his first season, he creates a Khadim bond with Aisha. On his second and third season, he creates a dose of Al-Iksir with Aisha's help (he creates the Khadim bond first, because Al-Iksir will reduce Aisha's Might and thus the bond's power).

Let's look at the details. In theory, on any season Rashid has a taqa allowance equal to half of the maximum taqa he could spend on the activity. I find it a somewhat whimsical rule but... I'll assume that, for purposes of computing the maximum taqa, one adds the maximum taqa that could be spent on the initial summoning, plus that to be spent on the seasonal activity proper. So, when dealing with Aesha, the maximum is 16 taqa for the summoning (Sihr 16), plus 5 (Aesha's Might of 25, divided by 5). This gives a seasonal allowance of 21/2=11 taqa.

To create the khadim bond, Rashid spends 6 taqa on the Summoning (so he can spend 5 on the bond).
He rolls 3, +16 (Sihr), +1 (Presence), +12 (6 taqa) = 32. He adds a confidence point, bringing the total to 35, for a summoning strength of 10. His lab total is 10 (summoning strength) + 2(Intelligence) + 12 (Alchemy) + 1 (Magic Lore) = 25, and he just manages the necessary total. Since Aisha will be his primary helper, Rashid creates a balanced bond, putting 1 point each in Casting, Finesse, Penetration, Safety, and Concentration.

Next season, Rashid focuses on Al-Iksir. Again, he spends 6 taqa on the Summoning.
He rolls a 1 followed by a 4, yielding an 8, +16 (Sihr), +1 (Presence), +12 (6 taqa) = 37, for a summoning strength of +12. This would yield a lab total of 12 (summoning strength) + 2(Intelligence) + 12 (Alchemy) + 1 (Medicine) = 27, but Aesha's Might caps this at 25. Rashid then gets 5 Al-Iksir points. He reduces his age by 10 years, and loses 5 dice of xp. He rolls 1,5,9,2,6, for a total of 23xp. I'll assume he loses them from the skills he gained earliest ("starting from childhood"), so I'll take off 15xp of Speak Arabic, and 5xp of Area Lore, and 3xp of Charm.

Next season, Rashid repeats the process. However, Aisha's Might is now 20. This will cap Rashid's lab total to 20, and reduces his taqa allowance to 10=(16+20/5)/2. Rashid spends 6 taqa on the Summoning.
He rolls a 5, +16 (Sihr), +1 (Presence), +12 (6 taqa) = 34, for a summoning strength of +14. This would yield a lab total of 14 (summoning strength) + 2(Intelligence) + 12 (Alchemy) + 1 (Medicine) = 29, but Aesha's Might now caps this to 20. Rashid then gets 4 Al-Iksir points. He reduces his age by 8 more years, and loses 4 dice of xp. He rolls 3,5,8,9, for a total of 25xp. I'll take off 20 more of Speak Arabic and 5 of Awareness.

At the end of the year, Rashid has lost many of his childhood memories, and has lost 48xp, seeing his Speak Arabic drop from 5 to 3(10), his Charm from 1 to 0(2), his Area Lore from 2 to 1(5), his Awareness from 1 to 0. His age is now 35-10-8=17, and he makes his first aging roll. I'll assume Rashid lives in an environment with no bonus or penalty (or perhaps he lives in a typical town, with a -2 penalty, but he can afford medical care and a regimen yielding a +2 bonus). He gains a +5 bonus to his aging rolls due to his being wealthy (+2) and having an Alchemy score of 12 (+12/5=+3). He rolls 7, +2 (17/10 age modifier), -5 (aging bonus), yielding a 4 (no adverse effects).

The last 5 years of this 20-year interval on the next post!

Over the next 2 years, Rashid attempts to deal with the loss of his memory. Each year, he spends 1(+1) xp on his Craft, and 24xp to recover the skills he's lost to Al-Iksir (so by the end of the 2 years, he's recovered the 48xp he'd lost). He also makes two more aging rolls. When he turns 36 he rolls 9, +2 (18/10 age modifier), -5 (aging bonus) = 6 (no adverse effects). When he turns 37 he rolls 3, +2 (19/10 age modifier), -5 (aging bonus), = 0 (no adverse effects).

Two more years. In each Rashid spends again 1(+1) xp on his Craft. The remaining 48xp are divided between Sihr(35xp) and Alchemy (13xp). Two more aging rolls. The first is a 2, +2 (20/10 age modifier), -5 (aging bonus) = -1 (no adverse effects). The second is a 3, +3 (21/10 age modifier), -5 (aging bonus) = 1 (no adverse effects).

On the year Rashid turns 40, Rashid experiences Fatra Banya (let's say he was trying another year of lab activities and badly botched his initial summoning). He aims for a positive experience, and spends a Confidence point to add +3 to the result. The total is 8+3=11. The warping is already accounted for in the 2 points/year average. As for the time ... not clear. I'll assume that time spent in Fatra Banya must be accounted for, and that Rashid spends his entire year in something of a trance. So, no xp this year (including no xp in his professional reputation) and Rashid loses all 66 labor points he would have earned, bringing the accumulated total computed a few posts back down from 132 to 132-66=66. Rashid does get 3 spirit points. However, he has so far gained 50 warping points, meaning a warping score of exactly 4. I assume Rashid had a score of 3+ before entering Fatra Banya, so he suffers from the effect of 3 corruption points, and will suffer one more corruption point the next time he enters Fatra Banya. To make things simple, I'll just assume the 3 spirit points cancel out the 3 corruption points (minor Virtue gained/lost or +1/-1 to social interactions).

The last aging roll is a 4, +3 (22/10 age modifier), -5 (aging bonus) = 2 (no adverse effects).
Wow, all that number crunching was a tour the force! Let's look at Rashid's sheet 40 years after his birth.

Rashid the ugly, weaponsmith, age 40

Characteristics: Int +2, Per +1, Pre +1, Com +1, Str +3, Sta +1, Dex 0, Qik -3
Age: 22 ("physical" & apparent)
Warping Score: 4
Confidence Score: 1(1)
Virtues and Flaws: Craftsman, Sahir, Sihr (Magic), Solomonic Alchemy, Wealthy, Affinity with Weaponsmithing, Mythic Weaponsmith x2*, Second Sight, Ambitious (Major - to reach legendary fame as a weaponsmith), Disfigured (just really ugly), Oversensitive (Criticism of his work), True Love (Minor), Unspecialized
Abilities: Arabic 5, Area Lore (local) 2, Artes Liberales 1, Athletics 1, Awareness 1, Bargain 2, Charm 1, Concentration 1, Craft: Weaponsmith 8(20), Finesse 1, Leadership 2, Magic Lore 1, Penetration 1, Philosophiae 1, Second Sight 2, True Names of 5 Magic Spirits**
Magic: Sihr 18, Alchemy 13
Personality Traits: Ambitious +6, True Love +3, Lazy -2
Reputations: Miserly 0(4), Fine Weaponsmith 0(3)

*Mythic Weaponsmith (from Grogs) allow Rashid to make Wondrous Items with his Weaponsmith ability; having taken the Virtue twice, he can create effects that fall under the Forms of Corpus and Terram.

**The True Names are those of:
Aisha, Rashid's True Love (Might 25)
Jafar, Aisha's father (Might 35), a secret that Aisha has stolen for Rashid
Ghassam, a powerful jinn smith (Might 20)
Al-Reeh, a spirit of wind and secrets (Might 10)
Al-Tajer, a jinni merchant (Might 10)

Over the last 20 years, Rashid has brought his father's workshop back from poverty to prosperity. With sufficient skill to consistently produce superior weapons, Rashid is starting to gain fame as a fine weaponsmith. He believes in a few years he will be able to create weapons of supernatural puissance, which will bring him even more fame.

Rashid has considerably improved his magical skills, and is proud of having weathered his first Fatra Banya so well, and of having managed to create a Khadim bond with his beloved Aisha. The two of them are still hiding their love from Aisha's father, however. Rashid hopes to address the situation over the next few years.