The Best and Worst Virtues

Games Discussion Ars Magica
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The main rule book is somewhat contradictory here. In the Extremely Complex Character Generation insert, they do say that it tends to produce characters who are close to those generated with the detailed rules.
But I don't think anyone here on the forums has said that playing characters through several years is like generating them to the same number of years.

Yes, they can. Victor has some abilities he may never use again. Again, I don't have an issue with extra XPs to add flavor as you suggest, and you still haven't really described the House minima abilities. If you want to provide 450 experience points, IMO, you can't just grant 450 experience points without putting qualifications on how they may be used, if the intent is to create more interesting, broader characters.

What constitutes barely competent? IMO, barely competent would be a score of 1, or 0 with some xp, IMO. Since it's a knowledge ability, it can't be used if there isn't some experience in it. I would venture that a lot of magi have 1 or 0 Code of Hermes, just enough to get by. So the gauntleted Quaesitor might have a score of 3, maybe 4, but I think 3 is a reasonable start for a new character, certainly not a five. Same with Faerie Magic, another House Minima you suggested having it at 5? But why? No one else in the Order really has it unless they are part of the House, so what differentiates a new Merinita from a 10 year PG Merinita? Not a lot, since the cost of going higher than 5 is nearly half of what it took to get to 5.

I guess what using House Minima would really do is make everyone within the House be much more similar to everyone else in the same House, while differentiating them from the Houses of the Order, generally. I'm not sure that's a good idea.

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Someone allowed to practice without being under the supervision of a master ought to have a 5, minimum. 5 is the standard set in C&G and A&A. Blame them!

I didn't specify House minima because I didn't want to type.

And yes, making magi from each House become more similar can be a trap too, but it also lends distinctiveness to a House. Is a Tremere who starts play without Leadership really taught the ways of the House? Etc. Note that packages can be created for lineages within a House; Flambeau comes to mind. Differentiating Houses is good. It also helps new players. If there are ample xps left over, characters will still be unique.

Oh, and what differentiates a more experienced Merinita is more than just Faerie Lore 7 vs 5; it is a higher Faerie Magic, some Faerie allies, more Faerie correspondence, maybe an inner mystery, some unique spells with FM parameters, maybe a Faerie artifact or two, a whole bunch of adventures, some very specific experience that is hard to get with only generic FL, Area Lores for various regiones and Arcadia.... But if you wanted a starting FL of 3, I'd not argue.

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Sure, but there's more to being a magus than ability scores. There are Arts and Spells, too. I think any magus post gauntlet is reasonably called a journeyman magus (The Rhine does it like this) until they have taken an apprentice. But being a Journeyman magus is altogether different than a journeyman professional. After all there is much more than being a master magus than there is in being a master professional.

My point is that some things should cost characters. Scarcity of beginning resources is also a good thing and it forces players to make hard choices. If I'm awash in XP, well, I can make a lot of really bad choices and become pretty good at a wide range of things rather than really good at only a few things. With 450 XP at gauntlet, what's to prevent Faerie Magic scores of 10 or more? That's only 275 xp, after all. Is that representative of an apprentice just out of gauntlet?

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The rules prevent a starting FM of 10. It is also pretty pessimal. A SG can also add other limits.

(If you're not awash in xp, you can still make bad choices.)

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Why can't that rule change (score limited by age)?

If I have just a few XP, I'm going to focus on the things that are 1) necessary for any basic character and 2) important to my particular concept. I may sacrifice some "necessary" things for the important to the concept things, but that only makes things more interesting, and allows some growth in another direction pretty early on.

Yes, you can make bad choices, but I'll use lottery winners as my guide that too much of a "good thing" can be easily squandered. I've read that as many as 70% of lottery winners end up going broke. Were they broke before the lottery? Maybe not bankrupt as the end up after the lottery...

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It's representative of a completely insane master and/or a LOT of seasons of free study on the character's part, that's for sure, given that the Magus pretty much controls the learning resources of their apprentice, except maybe in Houses Guernicus and Bjornaer. That also leaves them with only 175 xp for ANYTHING else, so... Fair trade?

Of course, scarcity of beginning resources is good, and I certainly wouldn't hand 450 xp to a character just out of gauntlet in an actual game. I may or may not be tempted to make the Strong Parens Virtue into the default, but that's just because I want to make sure my players have a score of at least 1 in all the "necessary" abilities and then they have room for one or two other skills to be specialized, since I consider that important for differentiating Magi further. It could be stereotypical House things (a Verditius getting a 4 in their Craft of choice, or a Bonisagus taking their Magic Theory from bog-standard 3 up to 5 or maybe even 6) or it could be things that stretch the character's capabilities beyond just magic (such as a character getting to Weapon Skill 4, so that they're considered "professional" level in their weapon of specialty, or pushing that Supernatural Virtue they got in order to diversify themselves into useful levels, such as getting Second Sight or Shapechange to level 4). But going above that point isn't really something I approve of, simply because if every character has the ability to be good at everything and even more good at their thing it just boosts the overall power level of the saga without actually making anything feel different.

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From what I understand of the statisitics, the percentage of folks that go bankrupt 5 years after winning big in a lottery is pretty close to the population at large who goes bankrupt in that same amount of time. I don't recall if it was adjusted for the socioeconomic level of the winner (or even if that's important, honestly).

The takeaway is that getting a lot of money doesn't change your spending habits. It just puts them on a larger scale.

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288

Speaking of XP Magi gain from Apprenticeship - part of it depends on the rules mastery of your PCs.

In my game, I gave OBSCENE amounts of xp to my troupe - BUT I gave them a stablock they acquired through their apprenticeship, as well as generous xp from their masters. In most games and as implied by RAW, this would is munchkin levels of XP.

The setting is a group of masters discovered a powerful temple of minerva - hiding the hibernating God, who initiated them into her mysteries of teaching and learning.

All of the PC's Masters (after mystery cult initiations had)
Base +9, Com +5, Good Teacher +5. Teach 16 (Apprentice), Puissant Teach +2, Teaching Lab Specailty +3, Student with Apt Student +5 = +46 xp per season with master.

They then also received in class training in mundane and arcane lores for +40xp.

Two seasons of exposure doing scutwork or labwork for +4 xp.

So each master taught at least 1, sometimes 2 seasons per year.

Each student received 90xp per year.

They were also assumed to have been trained before starting their apprenticeship.

They graduated their apprenticeships with:

Artes Liberals 3
Athletics 3
Awareness 3
Area Lore (Covenant) 3
Area Lore (Provence) 3
Areal Lore (Roman Empire) 3
Brawl 1
Civil and Canon Law 3
Code of Hermes 3
Concentration 4
Dominion Lore 3
Etiquette 3
Faerie Lore 3
Finess 4
Infernal Lore 3
Latin 6
Magic Lore 3
Magic Theory 6
Organisation Lore (OoH) 3
Parma Magica 1
Penetration 4
Philosophae 3
Profession: Scribe 3
Stealth 3
Teach 5

The apprentice learned from their own master: Opening Arts (1s)
5 Seasons Arts (230xp) - maximum of 10 in any art including affinities or puissant so the PCs were not over specailized - and also that their own masters didn't reliably have art scores higher than that.
3 Seasons of variable learning depending on house - PCs could learn a hermetic virtue, extra arts, or some other instruction
5 seasons of spells (250 lvls)

+60xp from exposure into wherever they wanted across: Scribe, Magic Theory, OoH Lore, or Latin. Everyone put their XP into Magic Theory.

So since spell levels weren't higher than 30, nothing was too crazy right out of the gate.

Maybe more experienced forum members here would break my game with shenanigans, but mercifully I had inexperienced players who aren't power gamers, so IN MY CASE - it works.

My group asked for a high powered game, so I gave them one. We're about 24 sessions in, 18 after apprenticeship and so far nothing too crazy. They've been enjoying long downtimes and actually getting powerful. The caveat is that if they want an apprentice, which some of them do, then they have to take teh time to join the Minerva Mystery cult (all in all about a 14 year commitment) to get their scores high enough in teach, the lab, the arts all at 10 etc to be "worthy" of learning all of the mystery cult virtues to boost their teaching scores high enough to participate in churning out powerful apprentices.

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289

This has drifted away from a best/worst virtue conversation. Somewhat. This all suggests that Skilled Parens is the single best Virtue for the value provided. It starts you at 300xp and 150 levels of spells. In my game, I start everyone at that and let them choose Skilled or Weak parens on top of that. I also set Advancement at an average of 40xp per year rather than only 30. This, and a little guidance as far as expected minimums, solves a lot of these issues.
Think about it. Skilled Parens. Plus 60xp and 30 spell levels. That makes Skilled Parens 50% more valuable compared to other Minor xp boosting Virtues, which grant only 50xp for a single category of abilities.
As for guidance, I expect characters to have a score of 2 in their native Area Lore (which, in my game, I also grant for free along with native Language). Other expectations for starting magi are Artes Liberales 1, Latin 4, Magic Theory 3, Magic Lore 1, Order of Hermes Lore 1, Parma Magica 1, Profession-Scribe 1, & Philosophiae 1. In creation and advancement, no more than half your xp should be spent on Arts. Also, during advancement, characters cannot spend more than three-quarters of their time on study or lab projects, and I require them to develop in cycles (short blocks of time) and check where they are at. This encourages them to build evenly instead of stacking all of their lab projects at the very end.
Also concerning advancement & development...
If Skilled Parens is the best value Virtue, then obviously Weak Parens is the harshest Flaw for its scale.
An Affinity is more valuable than Puissant in the long run. But it is better to have both, and Puissant is still a great boost and well worth its value.
Apt Student and Book Learner are both gold.
Unimaginative Learner, halving study totals from vis, is the cheapest slap on the wrist and a steal. So what if vis study is penalized? There are much better uses of vis, and study from it is a waste anyway. Sure, with vis study you could hit a double-quadruple exploder and a few thousand xp. Not studying from vis is like never playing the lotto. You wasted your allotment of luck in life on a RPG when you could have been playing the lotto. :mrgreen:
The other XP boosting virtues are still good if you have the space for them, and they are a great indicator of the character's background.

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But measured that way Strong Faerie Blood beats it out, as can Skinchanger and Shapeshifter for non magi. Skinchanger could potentially beat it out for magi, too, but usually they can manage the Arts. Faerie Sympathy can also beat out Skilled Parens if it applies well.

Strong Faerie Blood: 15 years x 15 exp/year = 225 experience, roughly triple Skilled Parens. Also, you can trade these in for years before aging if you so choose. Plus you get -3 to aging, see in the dark, Second Sight, some faerie-related thing, and an increase to the limit for Sympathy Traits. The drawback is some noticeable feature that is not significant enough to count as a Minor Flaw.

Skinchanger: For example, let's say you designed a non-combat (in human form) companion and took this with a bear as the animal. You just picked up 290 experience along with Characteristic boosts and other bonuses for combat. You can do this in other directions, too, such as a non-scout (in human form) companion taking this to become an eagle.

Shapeshifter: This is just like Skinchanger, maybe worse point-for-point but it gets you a ton. Pick scouting and combat forms, mix between diurnal and nocturnal forms, plus mix between land, air, and water. You could even take a common animal (dog, cat, horse) form to blend in among people in some way if you want. Yes, it costs experience to get all these forms, but you have a huge pool you don't need for much else.

Faerie Sympathy: The first point is pretty worthless. But after that, especially if it applies broadly, Faerie Sympathy can save tons of experience. For example, Faerie Sympathy 5 in weapons costs 100 experience. But alongside Single Weapon 5, Bows 5, and two relevant Craft Abilities at 5 it gets you four 10s for the price of five 5s (less 5 experience). We should compare to 6s to assume good choices in specialties. Four 6s would cost 420. Four 10s would cost 1100. So 1100-100-420=580. This Minor Virtue has just given you the equivalent of 580 experience, though you may need to worry about botches more. Still, that's enough of a gain you can sink some more Minor Virtues into Cautious with Ability and still have a good buy.

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Faerie Sympathy is awesome. It applies to spell mastery!

SFB... I've spokent about it's awesomeness. Strong Parens is also awesome because it provides xps that can be used for anything and is minor. You can take both.... Baccalaureus also awesome. Bacca+SFB is better than Strong Parens+SFB because Bacca allows spending

Shapeshifter is a very good virtue, less so for magi. It has much room for breadth but less room for expanding power, given a) that each shape requires its own xp to improve and b) for the most part, weapons > animals. But for diversity, yum. And even for magi, no warping...

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From what I've seen most would disagree with you on this. I've cited the rules saying all Abilities have Specialties and Spell Mastery is an Ability before. But try the challenge of actually finding a single canon magus with a Specialty in and Spell Mastery Ability. As a result, I have changed my opinion over the years. Since Faerie Sympathy works by replacing a Specialty and it appears Spell Mastery has none, then it appears Faerie Sympathy does not work with Spell Mastery.

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70 xp, which makes it even better.

294

Even if one disagrees, it still adds to Penetration, to AL, Philosophiae, Parma, Concentration, Finesse....

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295

Oops. Running the 6s in my head and botched that one. Avoided Twilight, though.

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Yup!

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The other thing about Faerie Correspondence is that it can cover a circumstance, not just a focus. So "while playing music" or "while in animal form" or "at sea" and so on are perfectly good correspondences.

298

One "worst virtue" is Faerie Raised Merintia (or is it magus?) The idea is great but the cost is way too high, only works on things you have seen (so you can't use it for something you need), only works if you've seen it that season (so you have a hard time accumulating xps across multiple seasons), and cannot be used reactively, since all xps are spent upon receiving them (so you never have free xps during an adventure).

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I've generally thought so, too, but then I looked at more numbers...

I realized we missed an important comparison along these lines. We know the comparisons between Affinity and Puissant. But let's compare the experience Virtues to Puissant. If you buy an Ability to 4 and have Puissant on top of it, for nearly all purposes you have +25+30=+55 experience in that Ability. That frees 55 experience to put in anything else (not as limited as the experience Virtues) that is available to you. So, if you want any Ability at 6, you should take Puissant and use the 55 experience elsewhere instead of taking the experience Virtue. Plus, Puissant can grow in value over time. For example, if you add 25 experience to that Ability then Puissant is worth 65 experience.

How does this hold up against the best of the experience Abilities, Skilled Parens? Well, as we can already see from the final line in the last paragraph, if you want an Ability at 7 Puissant saves more experience than Skilled Parens gives. But Skilled Parens also gives spell levels. I'd say Skilled Parens is slightly better there. If you don't want to go quite so far, Skilled Parens seems noticeably better. But then there is the point that Puissant keeps getting more valuable and Skilled Parens doesn't. Similarly, for a specialist in one Art Affinity (since it's considered better than Puissant with Arts) starts (not fully due to spell levels) catching up when 120 experience have been put in, which could happen at character generation but isn't so likely. So it looks like Skilled Parens is just barely strong enough to generally beat out Puissant/Affinity at character generation. But it wouldn't take very long for the others to pass it as they probably don't start that far behind.

My takeaway from this is that Skilled Parens is about on par with Puissant Ability and Affinity with Art, not that it is actually the single best of these things. Ones close to Skilled Parens would be similar (Gild Trained?). The more restricted ones with fewer points (50 in a limited area) are just generally a bad buy.

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Puissant means you're spending less XP to get the same effect; this isn't the same as getting more XP. Starting characters (magi especially) often can't buy Ability 6, so getting 4+2 doesn't free up anything. Puissant looks poor in this regard if you compare it with Improved Characteristics. IC means that +0 you had can become a +2, that's effectively +2 in every ability linked to that characteristic. Or +1 if you're improving a +2 to a +3. Or as many as 3 stats from +0 to +1. It's difficult to calculate how many XP this could effectively 'free up', but it can be a lot more than Puissant.

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