The Covenant of Caepernum: Eleutherius of Tremere

Games Discussion Ars Magica
41

I think that if you want to make a valid argument, you have to stay in the realm of the mind. CrCo can be used to cure a blind or a crippled, thus removing the flaw. If a magus takes the flaw, it must be incurable in some way, otherwise the flaw does not make sense. But that is a balance thing, not a magic limitation.

This is the flaw:

If the Jinn agrees to kill somebody in the other part´s behalf, he is bound to try. That does not mean that he cannot be “magically restrained”, mind controlled, killed, paralyzed, stoped by a ward or another defect that the Jinn has, etc. A lot of things can stop it from fulfilling his part. If you drive that jinn insane (PeMe), is he still bound by the agreed terms? How so?

What makes “forget the agreed terms’ a different hazard?

I mean, I can imagine how can that creature be magical bound by the terms of the agreement like salutor says, when is something passive (if agreed not to do something, you cannot do it) but I cannot imagine how somebody that has forgotten the agreed terms could pursue something actively.

The only possibIlity that I can think of is that the Jinn can still feel that there is a bargain in effect, even if he cannot remember the terms. He can try to reach the the person he bargained with (but can he remember he/she?), perhaps. But what I mean is that time the terms of the deal may expire. Perhaps the thing that the Jinn has to do can not be longer done.

And that is perfectly fine. As fine as being magically paralyzed for the time in which that Jinn should have fulfilled his bargain.

42

That does bring into focus the question - what does happen to a jinn that fails to keep a bargain despite its Greater Malediction?

43

Hi,

I was half-expecting we'd end up here. But ok:

Because it's not about the mind.

It's not simply about game balance, but about Essential Nature. If you have a flaw, say Blind, that could ordinarily be cured, for you it cannot be cured, because your blindness is Essential Nature. If you have a Malediction that keeps you bound to a bargain, you're bound and no one can magic it away.

Someone can try to stop you with magic, or restrain you, but cannot unbind you.

Some can make you forget about the bargain, with or without magic, but you are still bound by it, just as compelled to give it your all as if you remembered there was a bargain. Someone magically restrain you? Ok, but you will strive with every resource possible to break that restraint. Mind control you? You'll get rolls with bonuses to break free, every bit as good as what you'd get from your True Love. Someone make you forget about your True Love or bargain? We know how that works.

Not only does all of the above apply, but "forget the above terms" is a very weak restraint. If a jinn makes a bargain to walk around the city three times before sunset, and then its legs are chopped off, it physically cannot walk around the city. Though it can try walking on stumps, and maybe call in some favors. But if the jinn forgets the terms of the bargain, it remains bound and impelled to fulfil those terms, the same way someone who does not know what sex is might still feel an urge to go for it (a category which includes nearly all of the plant and animal kingdoms.) So the jinn who forgets about his bargain to walk around the city three times before sunset is still bound by his Malediction, and that will impel him to try to do that, even though he doesn't remember the real reason why.

The same way someone who has forgotten that he has not eaten in three days will nevertheless feel hungry.

The Malediction isn't just in the jinn's mind (and as a faerie, it's debatable if it really has one). It is written into the faerie's grammar, and being bound by the Malediction is every bit as real as being bound by any other law. This would still apply for any aspect of Essential Nature for anyone, but supernatural beings have it worse. For jinn, being bound by a bargain is what they are.

As outlined above, that's not the only possibility.

Anyway,

Ken

44

I am not questioning if the flaw is essential. It is. You cannot cure a Jinn from its malediction the same way you cannot cure an essentially blind person.

But you can temporarily give sight to a blind person using magic. That is not prohibited by essential nature limit, it simply states that those magics must be temporary. And in the same way, you can make a creature with that malediction break the bargain’s terms. You can trick her into thinking that she is fulfilling her part of the bargain, you can restrain her mentally to stop her from acting, and you can erase the knowledge of the bargain...

And now that I am thinking about it... perhaps you need spell with durations to affect the essential nature of Jinn.

45

Does having the Jinn's 'unbinding' or 'forgetting' only last for the duration of the spell fix this? Just as water flows into a hole, PeAq on a section of the ocean can create a water-pit, but as soon as the duration is over (whether it be a year or but a moment) the water comes crashing back in?
And I would guess the Jinn still feels like performing its tasks if necessary, in the same way that I sometimes feel like going for a stroll and getting a cup of coffee some mornings.
Every morning, really.

46

One thought is that if the answer if "it works, but only for the duration of the spell", that's going to be hard to distinguish from "it doesn't work", given the original spell has a Momentary duration. That's an IC rather than OOC problem though (and possibly food for a clever player character to pick up on - after all, Eleutherius is only Int +2).

I've been working on the first 15 years progression, and have ended up with the following thoughts:

  • 15 years seems like a long time, but actually it doesn't let him do anywhere near as much as I'd like. My plan is for him to learn Solomonic Sihr and Solomonic Astrology over this period, but he also needs to learn a "profession" skill to explain his upkeep (I'm planning to take Profession: Scribe, because copying books is a good job to have). That doesn't leave him with much time for all the other things we needs to do (boost hermetic arts, boost infiltration skills, boost supplementary sahiric skills...)
  • He's pretty much going to have to pose as a Wealthy sahir (with 30 xp per year), otherwise the problem gets even worse.
  • Are people okay for him to learn "standard" naranjs from lab texts? What about summoning naranjs? What about True Names (which let him treat any summoning naranj as a level 5 spell for the purpose of inventing it, assuming that he puts 5xp into it)?
  • He needs to feed the information he's learned back into the Order of Hermes. My current plan is for him to write a couple of tractatus on Magic Theory, one specialising on Sihr and the other on Astrology, plus another tractatus on Order of Solomon Lore. Would these tractatus be enough for magi who've read them to start creating spells (Creo / Intellego(?) / Perdo / Rego) that interact with the Solomonic Arts? E.g. an Unravelling the Fabric of the Summons spell, or a Creo Vim spell to create a false answer to an Astrological divination? Muto is probably not possible (as the Muto Vim guidelines are explicit that they only work on Hermetic spells) - what would it take to be able to do that? Can Eleutherius do it by default (as he has a "good" understanding now of the relevant Solomonic Arts), or would it need experimentation?
47

I haven't firmed it down too much (as this stage, it's just one of a number of ideas), but I doubt it'll be in the first couple of periods.

If you open his Hermetic Arts right after his Solomonic Arts are opened the total required should be doable, though - I think it's 2 x 30 = 60 (page 8 of Hedge Magic), assuming the apprentice has no other supernatural abilities. So requires a bit of work, but far from out of reach for a Vim specialist with an appropriate focus.

Note that given where I've got to in my initial drafts at advancing Eleutherius for 15 years, I think you should go ahead and draft Aeric's first 15 years ignoring Eleutherius - he'll have something for you, but only right at the end of the period (so it makes sense for you to only start to work on it in the second period).

48

Perfect. I will publish the first 15 years soon. Mainly dedicated to increasing arts.

49

I'm ok with that. It seems similar to assuming magi can get hold of lab texts for 'standard spells' meaning those from the core book.
The point of this project is to develop new spells and devices for inspiration to others. We don't get to do that if the magi spend most of their time grinding well-known spells

There was a recent discussion about this, I think the thread was about Mirror of Opposition.
I think writing tractatus on Magic Theory and/or Magic Lore explains specific types of exotic magic, which IMHO is enough for a magus to be sufficiently familiar with those specific types to develop Unravelling type spells.
Also, from the context in the chapter about Comprehend Magic my interpretation is that Pralicians can use Muto Vim on non-Hermetic magic. But I think it is reasonable to require a Breakthrough of some kind to include it in Hermetic magic.

50

I don't understand that from Comprehend Magic. The restriction to hermetic magic is in the guidelines for Muto Vim. I have been thinking about this. I think that a Minor Breakthrough is necessary to create MuVi spells that affect other tradition's magic. And that all those spells must be tradition specific, but as soon as the spell is created, anyone can learn it the normal way, without needing a virtue. And probably anyone will be able to create similar spells.

51

The core book's Muto Vim guidelines state that Hermetic magic can't use MuVi on non-Hermetic.

But Comprehend Magic gives a bonus to spontaneous Muto Vim spells on effects you've observed. And Rebuttal Mastery makes Muto Vim spells more effective. Also, several places in the text about Pralicians and Comprehend Magic there is mention of changing and altering exotic magic. Unless these things are completely useless, I think it's fair to say Pralicians can do this. But in generela it is still prohibited. I know Societates was written after core book, so Muto Vim does not mention this exception. Not even in errata. IMHO it should, or COmprehend Magic should specifically mention being an exception.

But for this restriction in MuVi to mean anything, I don't like it if any Pralician can just observe an exotic wizard, invent a Muto Vim spell and then everyone in the Order can use the lab text. This is too easy, and in this I refer back to MuVi guidelines. You can't!
For Perdo Vim the restrictions are less severe - if you are "familiar"with other specific types of magic you can use the easier/more efficient Unravelling guidelines rather than Winds of Mundane Silence.
I find it reasonable for a Pralician to need to make a Breaktrhough or some kind of Integration in order for their Muto Vim spells for exotic magic to be usable in normal Hermetic magic.

52

But the bonus to Muto could be applied to hermetic magic. Of course, their focus includes altering any kind of exotic magic even if MuVi does not allow it. Focuses should be thematically restricted, not rules-wise restricted.

There is no explicit mention to Pralixian avoiding that rule when that would have been quite easy in the description of comprehend magic.

Anyway, the reason I thought a minor breakthrough would be necessary for inventing those MuVi spells affecting other traditions is that minor breakthroughs are the ones that can be shared immediately within the order, like a new range or target. I think that should be the case with those MuVi spells. They won't be anything new, as these spells have existed for ages, they just would be able to affect new targets, previously unknown to the order.

I think that the reason MuVi has that restriction is that the Order of Hermes is not familiar with outside magic. They hunt hedge magi instead of studying their magic. If you ask for a minor breakthrough to be able to affect each tradition with MuVi, few traditions would be worth the effort, because usually Order of Hermes don't collaborate with them and PeVi is easier to use to counterspell than Muto.

53

With a risk of going completely off topic, so this should maybe be in a thread of its own:

I'm still not convinced by the Line of Pralix and Muto Vim. Yes, it would have been very easy for the author to have added a line stating: "normal restrictions on Muto Vim do not apply to magi possessing Comprehend Magic", or to have aded errata for core book's Muto Vim. But some things may have been so blindingly obvious to authors, editor and playtesters about certain concepts that some rules aren't explicitly spelled out. Cases like this often spark heated debates on this forum.

Consider these things from HoH: Soc:

This is mostly flavor text, but for altering I read "Muto Vim" but they can't do this per core book!
A little more rules-referencing is the example of Winds of Mundane Silence, where the more effective method is using Unravelling the Fabric of [Form]. But the example isn't very good since there is no debate over Perdo Vim.

The masteries of Unravelling and Rebuttal are not listed as restricted to only Line of Pralix, or in any way require one has Comprehend Magic, but they are listed in this section.
If not even magi familiar with exotic magic - like Pralicians having studied it using Comprehend magic - can use Muto Vim on it, there really is little point in adding Muto effects to this mastery. And no reason at all to even mention it in this chapter. Then the only Muto Vim effects benefiting from it are those cast on other Hermetic magi's spells.

Ok, so a Pralician can affect exotic magic using Muto Vim! Sure, this rule does only describe spontaneous magic, but with all the above references - why not formulaic? The core book's Muto Vim restrictions saying it only works on Hermetic magic does not make distinctions about using spontaneous compared to formulaic magic, only that you can't cast MuVi magic on spontaneous magic. So there is the exception, although not spelld out as clear as one could wish for.

Normally, Hermetic magi can use the more effective Perdo or Rego Vim guidelines (like Unravelling) for specific magic rather than the more difficult catch-all spells (like Winds of Mundane Silence) - oif they are familar with that magic.
My interpretation of the entire Line of Pralix chapter, from the references above is that - as an exception to the normal definitions of Muto Vim - Pralicians can use Muto Vim on exotic magic, if they are familiar with it. And that may be from some sort of odd effect from Comprehend magic, which may be integrated into normal Hermetic theory, if someone bothers. But I would have liked to have some definition of what it requires to be familar with specific types of exotic magic. I would think it takes more than 3 rounds of observation for the necessary familiarity to invent formulaic spells against that magic.

I know most magi of the Order of Hermes hunt and kill exotic wizards, but maybe that is because it is so much easier and because there are so few Pralicians and what they do is difficult and not very rewarding in the near future. It takes a lot of hard work and diplomacy to induct exotic wizards or entire traditions into the order, but eventually you may learn something, they may contribute something to refining Hermetic theory?

Also, my opinion is because I really like the concept of the Pralicians and I really, really want them to work. What they do is so complex and hard that not giving them the benefit of the doubt and a generous interpretation makes them IMHO a lot less useful. It is so much easier for a magus to train Parma Magica to a high level, be completely immune to the exotic wizard's magic, and just burn him. But IMHO so much more fun if the Pralician can study his tradition, develop spells effective against it, and do creative things.

54

As you say, is mostly flavor text. But yes, suppressing sounds like something that can be done with Rego, altering with Muto and dispelling with Perdo.

All the examples (spells) given are from hermetic magic. Pralixian may still use their magic and masteries to affect hermetic magic. By no means those masteries are unusable by them if they cannot Muto Vim exotic magic. Also, note that one of the masteries applies to one Technique and the other to two, which gives the idea that balance-wise those two are less valuable. Also, Rego Vim still can be used with exotic magic.

This quote is referring to any kind of magic, including hermetic magic. Also, the bit about spontaneous is related to the part omitted: "Any insight bonus applies only to the specific creature or magic studied; even if an identical creature is encountered later, it must be studied again to get this bonus". You can spontaneously cast (Mu)(Pe)(Re)Vi over the magic studied (but not use one of your pre-cooked formulaic magic). Note that that rules out most MuVi spells because you cannot cast one if the spell is already in effect and you cannot study a spell that hasn't been cast.

Note that the skill itself is still useful even if this quirky bonus is very very situational. The biggest regret that I have with this ability is that you need to penetrate creature's might to study it, which pretty much makes quite useless against creatures. But you can identify a lot of other things.

I think those 3 rounds are enough to be familiar with that specific spell or creature. How many spells are needed to be familiar with a tradition and be able to invent spells? That I don't know.

That is why it is so difficult to contact other traditions and you need familiarity with them to create "unraveling the fabric of" versions.

I don't see the problem requiring a minor breakthrough to use MuVi on a previously unknown tradition. Spells could be designed taking into account the duration, ranges, and targets of that tradition. And then anybody could learn them, because they are not that afar from the hermetic rules. They just affect a not very known tradition's spells.

55

I think for a level of spell intergration you'd need experimentation or insight, but I admit I'm very very shoddy on the actual rules for integration and insight.
As far as his experience, I think if he's playing his cards right, he doesn't need to pose as a wealthy scribe, because his 'extra' xp he would be getting is instead being dumped into hermetic-only arts.

56

What do you mean by "spell integration" exactly? Are you thinking even things like Unravelling variants, or only some of the more complicated options?

Studying Hermetic Arts whilst undercover has the problems that he needs something to study from, and that it would be potentially obvious that he wasn't working to earn a living. Plus, spending his time copying the Suhhar's books has its advantages...

57

Eleutherius is going to spend some time in an Astrological Lab.

Solomonic labwork is quite a bit more complicated than Hermetic Lab work. Why? Well:

(Ability) (Art) Lab total = Int + Ability + Art + Lab Aura + Summoning Strength.

But:
Summoning Strength = Summoning Total - Assisting Spirit's Might Score.

Summoning Total = Pre + Sihr + Summoning Aura + stress die.

For an Ungifted sahir, Max level of lab effect = Assisting Spirit's Might Score.

Now if we're working to the margins, and inventing something new in one season, Effect Level = 1/2 (Ability) (Art) Lab total

Then:

(Ability) (Art) Lab total = Int + Ability + Art + Lab Aura + Pre + Sihr + Summoning Aura + stress die - 1/2 * (Ability) (Art) Lab Total.
=> (Ability) (Art) Lab total = 2/3 (Int + Ability + Art + Lab Aura + Pre + Sihr + Summoning Aura + stress die).
= 2/3 (Int + Pre + Ability + Art + Sihr + Lab Aura + Summoning Aura + stress die).

Max effect level in one season = 1/3 (Int + Pre + Ability + Art + Sihr + Lab Aura + Summoning Aura + stress die).

But we're not always going to be working to the margins (and Eleutherius isn't actually ungifted), so our general lab total is:

(Ability) (Art) Lab total = Int + Pre + Ability + Art + Sihr + Lab Aura + Summoning Aura + stress die - Assisting Spirit's Might Score.

This does seem to imply that a Gifted sahir wants the lowest possible might spirit assisting them in the lab (as indeed does an Ungifted one, but their "lowest possible" increases with the level of the effect you're designing, whereas it doesn't for a Gifted sahir). Sometimes assisting him in the field as well - I haven't fully worked this through, but Summoning Strength is added to Casting Score, but Casting Score isn't added to penetration (whereas Might is). So if you care about Penetration (or overcoming wards), you want the highest Might spirit you can get (all else being equal), but if you're just struggling to reach the required casting score you want the lowest.

I intend to assume a Lab Aura of 0 (in line with the standard for sahir as per tC&tC pg 33), and a Summoning Aura of 3 (on the basis that he can go somewhere at least semi-decent for this bit), unless someone wants to argue differently.

The lab total indirectly incorporates a die roll. I could roll this, I could assume he gets the minimum, I could assume he gets a 3 (minimum if he's prepared to spend a confidence point if he rolls lower than 3), I could assume he gets a 6. Anyone got any strong feelings?

58

He needs not to do the integration. He only wants to bring familiarity to the order. The ability to create PeVi unraveling spells and the like is already on the order. You only need to know enough of that tradition to do it.

If you refer to more complex things than just familiarity, others can do it under his guidance.

59

One point missing from my earlier summary is that you can boost your lab total by spending vis on your Summoning Total. This also helps your Bargaining total, which is good because the Bargain EF for getting you to help out in the lab for a season is 21 (18 base + 6 season - 3 single task), vs Comm + bargain + Summoning Strength +- Other modifiers.

It seems to be possible to use the vis at two stages for the bargaining - either when you first cast the spell, or as part of the negotiations. Offering it when you first cast the spell means that it goes into the Summoning Strength, and therefore affects both the bargaining and the lab total. Offering vis as part of the negotiations, by contrast, only affects the negotiations (but presumably has the advantage that you only have to spend it if you conclude a successful bargain, whereas it's gone regardless if you use it in the summoning).

Anyway. This all matters because I'm thinking about trying to have Eleutherius develop the following Astrological Naranj:

60

Final version of Eleutherius at gauntlet, for completeness (only very minor revision since last time is change in mastery speciality)

Character concept
A Tremere Assessor, trying to infiltrate the Order of Suleiman.

Why has he come to Caepernum
It's a useful base for his work. In practice, he'll probably spend considerable periods of time away from it when "undercover".

Appearance
In his natural form, he is a thin young man with olive skin, black hair and a determined expression.

Sigil
The effects of spells cast by Eleutherius appear to coalesce from grains into a coherent whole - so a memory would first appear as fragments that swiftly interlock of make a coherent whole, or a destroyed object become over a moment ever finer dust.

Background
Tariq was born to a bedouin tribe in the Nefud Desert, part of the larger Banu Kalb tribal group. As a young boy, he could see the evil spirit whispering in the ears of the tribe's Sahir, driving him to ever greater cruelties against them. Things came to a head when the infernal jinn demanded that he start sacrificing victims to it - including the boy. He was rescued in the nick of time by one of the Redcaps the then Primus of Tremere had encouraged to find Gifted African and Arabian children. The Redcap took the boy back to Transylvania, teaching him his own ability to change form in the process, and "Tariq" spent the next 15 years as Janos, a Hungarian herdsman's son, training as a spy to go back and infiltrate his native lands.