The "Forgotten" Spells

Games Discussion Ars Magica
7

There is a "gradually turn meat into vermin" Muto Animal guideline. shrug.

The 4th edition of the spell made it correspond with the "make a major change in a beast, while leaving it recognizably the same sort of animal" guideline (level 15, duh). That's a base of 4 in ArM5, leaving the spell again at level 15.

The distinction here is small enough that I would just go with the level 3 guideline.

The animal would be non-poisonous until it naturally produces more poison, which may take some time (off-hand: a day). Making it permanently non-poisonous would be harder as it "wounds" the animal, like The Falcon's Hood does.

Yes, Touch is much more plausible. Unless you are designing a spell that will be used during a siege or similar situation, most Structure spells do perfectly well at Touch range.

There are no guidelines as to when spells allow natural resistance. If you just stick to the guidelines they would theoretically never be required, although SGs are encouraged to use their discretion. The damage probably shouldn't considered as an additional effect, but the fact that the spell can be conveyed by an arrow sure should.

And Bjornaer magi are unaffected.

8

While your at this. DO me a favor if you can find it.

I don't have accesss to the 3rd edition books anymore(not that I am too sure I want them.. but...).

There was one spell that to this day makes everyone shudder with glee, and I'd like to see it get a 5th edition treatment. I would do it myself, but as I said. I havent; seen a 3rd Ed book since... 96?

Whitefire Chant, you know. blazing white flaming sword that purged demons, and attacked demonic influence in the soul? But othewise did no harm?

I believe that was the whole gist of it. Sure there was more, maybe less, but it's been a LONG time.

9

The Wizard's Grimoire 3rd Ed. page 107

Whitefire Chant : Lv 40
Perdo Vim
spell focus : miniature silver sword (+03)
R: self/touch , D: special

Intoning this spell brings a blade of pale fire into existence in the caster's hands.
It exists only as long as there are physically manifested demons in the immediate area of the wielder
(i.e. within his sight) ,
and it only harms the denizens of Hell.

Against such foes , the blade has the following statistics :
First Strike: +07
Attack Bonus: +06
Weapon Damage: +22
Parry Bonus: n/a
Strength: n/a
Load: 0
Space: 02

The Finesse Ability is used in place of any Weapon Skill to determine combat totals.
The blade requires both hands ,
so spells cast while the sword is manifest are affected by the No Gestures penalty ,
if applicable.

10

This allready exsists in HoH:TL.
PeAn Mutantum 40
R: Touch, D: Diam, T: Ind
This spell causes an animal to suffer a fatal wound, just as if it had been pierced through the heart. Casting this spell while intending to touch the animal is dangerous, as it may take several minutes to die, during which time it may thrash around wildly or strike the caster. For this reason, Milvi usually tether the spell to an arrow or javelin (though any sort of tether may be used), allowing them to cast it in secret from a safe distance. The beast will die after it is struck, and the increased duration ensures the caster has time to fire the arrow after casting the spell.

(Base 30, +1 Touch, +1 Diam; Tethered)

11

Thanks so much for your help, Fruny.

Are you sure about this? The size of poison is 1 dose, certainly an animal has more than 1 dose in it at a time. It seems to me that destroying 1 dose in a creature that may have 10 would either make the next dose a "blank" or each dose 1/10th as effective.

12

Once more - cheers to Angafea for bringing us this thread. And to Fruny for is efforts in the last tuning. These spells brings up fond memories and many of the spells are worth bringing back to life on account on their well-phrased names alone!

I really dont have anything to add except me reservations toward one of the spells (though the title is so great I'd want to find some kind of use for it), namely:

My reservation is not to any of the calculations or that sort, but just to bring up an earlier discussion whether it is at all possible to create nourishing food without using a ritual and vis. I know I might be alone on that one, but nevertheless it is my stand that you cannot. That is not to say that you can't give people a feast and a feeling of having eaten their full, just that they'd very soon become hungry again. On the plus side - If you go with this you'd be able to downside the effect by two magnitudes due to removing the Sun duration when making a mom creo ritual.

13

Creo Aquam Spells

Douse the Fiend of Flame:  Gen
THEN:  Near, Inst
Puts out a fire elemental if you can beat its Summon Factor on die + Level.
NOW:  Level:  Gen  , R:  Voice, D:  Mom, T:  Ind
Weakens and possibly destroys a creature composed of fire, such as a Fire Elemental.  If the spell penetrates the creature's Magic Resistance, the Elemental loses Might equal to the spell’s level.
(Base effect,  +2 Voice)

Burden of the Watery Load:  5
THEN:  Near, Inst
Water forms on one target.  Unless the target is naked, the water will soak into furs and clothes, increasing the target’s Load by at least one point.  The target will also leave wet footprints.
NOW:  Level: 10 , R:  Voice, D:  Diam, T: Ind
Attack and Defense in Combat are reduced by this extra Encumbrance if the total exceeds the target’s Strength.
(Base 3, +2 Voice, +1 Diam)
NOTE:  I really like this spell and effect!

Douse the Fire:  5
THEN:  Near, Inst
Creates water in a fire and puts it out if the fire is no larger than a bonfire.  This spell causes a good deal of steam.
NOW:  Level:  5, R:  Voice, D:  Mom, T: Ind
(Base 3, +2 Voice)

Lungs of Water and Death:  35
THEN:  Near, Inst, Perdo
Fills a target’s lungs full of water, drowning it.  The target must roll a Stm roll of 8+ or drown within 3 minutes.  Casting prerequisites:  Animalem: animals; Corporem:  people.
NOW:  Level:  25, R: Voice, D: Diam, T: Ind
Casting Requisites:  Animal, Corpus
(Base 4, +2 Voice, +1 Diam, very unnatural +2)
      UPDATED:  Dropped the "part" target per Fruny's suggestion, reduced the "unnatural" a bit, but kept the diam duration as I think that is sufficient to justify the save to survive, plus what's a minute amoung friends?

Muto Aquam

Water to Wine:  5
THEN:  Reach, Sun/Perm, Herbam
Changes a bottleful of water into decent wine.  The many variations of this spell create different type of wines of varying qualities.
NOW:  Level: 10 , R: Touch, D: Sun, T: Ind
Changes a large cask of water into decent wine.
(Base 3, +1 Touch, +2 Sun)
      UPDATED:  Removed Herbam req per Fruny's suggestion.

Ice Lock:  30
THEN:  Sight, Spec, Terram
Over the course of an hour, one body of water up to the size of a small lake (no more than 2 miles in diameter) freezes.  If the water is running, it will either freeze up (if it is small) or fill with ice floes (if it is large).
NOW: Rego Aquam Level:  35, R:  Sight, D: Sun, Target:  Part
(Base:  3, +3 Sight, +2 Sun, +1 Part, +2 Size)
     UPDATE:  Fruny rightly notes that the freezing slowly is a special effect of this spell, which could just as easily be much much quicker.  I would happily make a spell that gives up this amount of power a magnitude lower if it were proposed of my saga.  Otherwise, I assume the wizard who invented it had a good reason to make the ice for slowly (to allow ships to retreat , or not be overtly magical).

Perdo Aquam

Destroy Spirit of the Water:  Gen
THEN:  Near, Inst
Destroys any water elemental if you can match its Summon Factor on a die +Level -5.
NOW:  Level:  Gen, R:  Voice, D:  Mom, T:  Ind
Weakens and possibly destroys a creature composed of water, such as a Water  Elemental.  If the spell penetrates the creatures Magic Resistance, the Elemental loses Might equal to the spell’s level.
(Base effect,  +2 Voice)

Rego Aquam

Bind Spirit of the Water:  Gen
THEN:  Near/Spec, Sun
You can control a water elemental if you can roll its Bind Factor or higher on a die + Level.   If the elemental is already bound by a higher level binding spell, your spell will not work.  A botch means the elemental will attack you to the best of its ability.  If you try to bind an elemental again when its first binding wears off, you risk one extra botch die for every day the elemental has been in your service.  
NOW:  Level:  45, R:  Voice, D:  Sun, T:  Ind
You can control a creature made of water, and may give it one complex command at a time.  The creature may resist a specific command on an Intelligence or Cunning roll of 12+, but this does not end the spell.  
(Base 25, +2 Voice, +2 Sun)

Summon Spirit of the Water:  Gen
THEN:  Reach, Spec, Ritual, Vim
You can summon any type of water elemental you know of if you can roll its Summon factor on die + Level.  You must summon the elemental out of its natural element.  A botch you means you have summoned the wrong kind of elemental, perhaps an unusually strong or hostile one.
NOW:  Level:  Gen, R:  Arc, D:  Sun, T: Ind
(Base  ??, +3 Arc, +2 Sun, + Summoned‘s Might)
NOTE:  Are there even animal intelligence non-fairy elementals in ArM5, or have these been purposefully kicked out as being non-authentic?  If these sort of elementals are still “around” do they inhabit all sorts of areas that their elements are in, so the distance transported is small?

Gift of the Floating Wood:  10
THEN:  Near, Sun (Spec)
Lets any object or creature of Size +3 or smaller float in water.   Lasts until the object leaves the water or Sun.
NOW:  Level:  30, R:  Voice, D:  Sun, T:  Ind
Casting Req:  Based on Form
(Base 5, +2 Voice, +2 Sun, +1 Size)
      UPDATE:  This spell acutally makes the water float the object, unlike a Rego Terram or Corpus that makes the object lighter than water.  Just another way to do the same effect that favors the Aquam mage.
14

Thanks for the encouragement Furion.

Certainly there is something to be said for lowering the level to 20. I could easily see burning 4 pawns of Vis to get 500 lbs of meat in an emergency.

But yah, I still favor the idea the spell "leaves you hungry" at the end of the duration, even if you ate it exclusivly for a moon.

15

Yeah, I agree. I like the image of grogs coming back ravenous, ready (and able!) to eat a whole moon's worth of food in a day to catch up on what they didn't really eat. (Phew, that was a mouthful. :laughing:)

16

Or they simply die in an instant : /

17

I like that image too - as long as I am not one of those poor grogs - but I am still sceptical. I still think it could be abused, not neccesarily by the players (but just as well feeling that being able to make food without vis would have been used on a larger scale at some time, sooner or later, and lead to events in ME on a larger scale - it simply imposes on my vision of ME as a at times struggling poor existence for the majority of people), and that it needs some limit.

18

Hmmm - is that pro or con?

Well that is a bit sad too... must be a middle ground somewhere.

19

Someone else pointed out that Healing without Vis , returns wounds to their original state.
The same could apply to magically created food.
You return to the same state of hunger as you originally had.
I was always under the impression that non-vis created food or drink was satisfying ,
but not nourishing.
Which is why Magi always created non-vis alcohol for their grogs ,
so that they would not suffer from hangovers.

20

Might have been me. in that other thread I linked to. But I did that mostly to question the unquestioned assumption that many had that it didnt matter at all. I do think there is and even stronger argument in that ME and the Order of Hermes would look very different if magi had the power to create nourishment without a limit - unrestricted by any ressource (namely vis).

Might be quite worth considering! Still had to make a consideration on whether the effects "stack". Most magic - short of circle/ring or Rituals are limited in duration - and that would leave the person(s) back at "base hunger" every month or so, or how to handle that?

So was I - untill it was discussed in the Creo Cheese-thread (beginning to get the munchies myself :smiley: ) - and really the RAW does leave the question open for interpretation and that discussion showed that we do interpret it differently. I personally skeptic - but I would like to find a middle ground - also in terms of what makes the best stories and scenes.

Then there is that - I hadnt thought of it and it didnt appear in the other thread either as far as I can remember.

21

Gargantua is quite happy. He has gotten Magus Alcofribas Nasier of Jerbiton to fill his larder with enormous quantities of the finest delicacies. In fact, he has spent the greatest part of the last month pigging out in his cellar. Strangely, although he's been eating and eating and eating, he never feels quite full. "So much the better", he exclaims, "that way I still have room for more!"
Sadly, good things never last and the rising full moon brings an end to the feast. Just as he was about to bite in a nice piece of ham, a horrific stomach cramp makes Gargantua wince. When he opens his eyes, the ham is gone, and so are most of the foodstuffs that filled his pantry. Weakened by hunger pangs that refuse to subside, Gargantua crawls towards a barrel which he hope has been spared by this curse that has suddenly befallen him. Luckily for him, the barrel is indeed full, although oats make for a quite miserable fare for one who has grown accustomed to fine ambrosia. Unable to think about anything but food, Gargantua digs in head first.
Two days and three barrels later, he finally stagger out of the cellar, dazed by the amount of food he managed to inhale in such a short time, and substantially wiser about those treacherous devil worshippers that call themselve Hermetic Magi.

Magically created food works well to complement real food during a feast, but your grogs aren't going to appreciate being "fed" that way. After the first time you reduce them to devouring their own boots, they are going to be rather suspicious of any food you conjure for them. Expect a loyalty drop.

22

Creo Herbam Guidelines , page 136 ArM 05.

This would therefore be the same for Animal & Corpus.
(if we were eating people that is)
This does not mean a ritual by virtue of spell level alone ,
but a Momentary Creo Ritual using Vis.
(in case anyone was going to argue semantics)

My thought was to augment existing food stocks.
You have plenty of bland but nourishing food.
Simply create extra ingredients (w/o vis) that you then use with existing real food.
This could be rare or hard to get ingredients during winter.
People still get their staple diet , but at least it isn't boring.

23

Fruny you are far more generous to the poor Gargantua as I would have be: I would instantly put him in a state as if he hasnt eaten anything withhin the last Moon... this would mean he will fall down to his knees and do his last breath. I think not only the food in the stomach disappears, all the muskles, bones, blood, flesh, hairs ect produced with the food (and yes I think even in the middle ages people knows that if you dont eat you will starve :wink:) will disapear too or at least will die as if it is rotten flesh.
And if Gargantua would have use magical created water for a month.... I think at least some parts of him will change into dust in a moment.
In general I am very generous to magic and what you can do with it: in my saga magic seems powerfuler than in the mind of many forum users, but in this case I understand no fun (which is typical for germans, some english people may say :stuck_out_tongue:) and would be bad to the bone, because otherwise you would weaken one of the Limits of Hermetic Magic, so I think.

24

The middle ground might simply be
to apply extra aging rolls
to someone who has survived on non-vis created food and drink.
If the period is one in which a normal person could survive w/o food ,
then any debilitatation is not permanent.
But can be regained through proper care and real food.

For extended periods ,
the person would possibly end up the equivalent of being arthritic and enfeebled ,
or dead (if the rolls went badly).
This might require magical healing (as per resolving an aging crisis).
Any further natural aging rolls could well kill them

25

Hey I like the thing with the aging rolls (which shoudlnt be boosted by longivety rituals!): a roll must be made for every period a normal human could survive without food or water, exept for the first one. A normal human should survive 10 days without food and 3 days without water, so if someone uses magical created food and water for 3 months (90 days) as only source of food and water he would have to make 27 aging rolls which would be very nasty, but in most cases not deadly.

26

... and then comes the Warp. I dont care about the level or the constant effect - if someone lived on magically created food out of thin air - then I'd say they qualify for being warped by the forces of nature...

Well even more interesting, and I think this thread has given many ideas on a middle ground of sorts, it is that the sentiment here and now seems so far from the predominant views on the subject in the Creo Cheese thread, where I felt like I was more or less alone on being sceptical on non-ritual foods nourishment.