The Roman Tribunal Rewrite - Theme search

The one other thing is this- vis awards should not fluctuate with political dominance. Politically Rome and Provencal invaded Thebes, but the Theban tribunal is not subjugated by the Provencal and Roman Tribunals. If they asked a noble to grant them access to vis the noble would be wondering what they were talking about, and if they attempted to use mundane force to seize another covenant's vis source then the magi of the other covenant would press charges that the first is depriving them of their magic.
I'm not saying that intrigue or even inter-order intrigue is an inherently bad idea, but trying to tie the political situation in Italy which has international overtones and factors to being a reflection of the order entirely within the Roman tribunal runs counter to established canon (regarding Fredrick II) as well simply not making sense. This is a large part of why it was being suggested that the 3rd ed book should be thrown out.
Finally the Rhine Tribunal is already filled with intrigue and politicking, Hibernia is rife with conflict, Thebes is tied to mundane politics since the 4th crusade, and arguing within the Order about it. I don't think we need a another tribunal with another variant on the single theme. There is already a canonical enemy of the order in Rome, and multiple hedge traditions, I think the conflict should actually be without rather than within.
Large libraries and little vis works for me, but I do not think that just because the Vatican covers one square mile of the Tribunal that the entire Roman tribunal should be overwhelmed with divine auras. At minimum I would expect the coliseum in Rome to have an infernal aura due to all the Christians sacrificed there... but wherever there is a source of vis some hedge tradition has sprung up to use it...

Martyrs create Divine auras. Christianity is sneaky that way...if you let them worship, they win. If you kill them, they also win.

The current Catholic view, which is that the sand from the Coliseum is a impregnated with the blood of the martyrs and thus is a Relic, is from after the game period. The building is a sort of fortress in period, for the Frangipani family.

That being said, if you want to wade into "Modern Catholics...your ancestors didn't care about the thing you now care about, you rubes!" territory, well, you're a brave chap.

Or we can get complex about it- the center is a divine relic but the seats are tainted with infernal, which is fading due to the overwhelming nearby presence of a divine relic.

In which case, the four real-life churches they made out of the seats after the Romans started robbing out the Coliseum...are, what?

Sorry, I'm bogging you down in minutae. My point is basically that it's really hard to put Infernal anywhere real without annoying people. That's why there's so little of it about.

As 3rd Edition proved, the only way to avoid irritating people about picking one spot to throw Infernal on is by throwing it everywhere, and then they're just irritated about something else :unamused:

AFAICS this is already a working project in the rough.

The covenants in the Roman tribunal becoming patrons of mundanes (like artists ans scholars), mundane groups, hedge magicians, even ecclesiastical groups is a broad, high level concept

  • that has not yet been tried in ArM,
  • whose adoption by magi can be well motivated (see the Coenobium in F&F),
  • and which provides a background for interesting, original campaigns.

We would need some rules stabilizing the Tribunal then. Have covenants claim and register exclusive influence on certain individuals or groups with the Tribunal - and thereby accept responsibility for their behaviour towards other magi and the Order in general? That would make the Roman Peripheral Code advanced and special - and provide lots of intrigue to Tribunal meetings.

I would rethink aligning covenant boundaries with those of medieval comuni, though. The boundaries, even the mere existence of many comuni around 1220, are far too precarious. You don't wish to tie covenants, which define your Tribunal, formally to them, and to all the vicissitudes of the history of Italian comuni. Look for examples at the fates of Castelseprio (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferentium). So the Tribunal should allow an influential covenant to register influence and take responsibility in many comuni.

We could have Guelph and Ghibelline covenants, who are patrons only of groups belonging to one or the other faction and thereby hope to simplify their management. We could have localized covenants (like perhaps Verdi) and covenants maintaining influence in several areas (as Rellantali did in ArM3). Or even covenants concentrating their influence on certain kinds of undertaking like sea trade, large scale transhumance, or cloth manufacture.

Cheers

Ruins & Re-awakenings fits with my ideas and a divided Tribunal in Late-Winter (with all implied politicking) does appear to be the consensus.

Everything else does appear to be in dispute.

I think, however, for a theme that is all we need to agree upon- ruins and reawakenings, the tribunal is in late winter with some signs of a new spring.

I do like how the 'Ruins and Reawakening' theme ties in fairly well with the Traditionalist/Transitionalist debate - which is something already established in HoH:TL as being a fairly integral story element for the Guernicus.

I think that a tribunal on the cusp of military action would be an interesting one to develop - it creates stories where the PCs can either be agents of peace or agents of war.

I love the idea of making people decide the value of tearing something down to allow something new to flourish vs. the very real hurt that is going to result from the action of tearing it down.

Still not an author type, though - so I'm just throwing comments at the wind. :smiley:

I do want to raise a comment on proxy wars. If the Tribunal is in late Winter and Spring is coming, then the magi don't have nearly the influence that they think they do over mundane affairs, and the fact that Italy is soon to be ablaze with war is not because magi are picking sides and setting up a chessboard. It's because they've lost control of the game; strong and dynamic powers like Sicily, Venice, and the Papacy have developed their own interests and these are leading to a war that really isn't in the interests of most political magi.

Possibly because Magvillus has got too effective in strangling the various covenants's abilities to interfere to quiet things down, and now suppressed mundane powers are flexing their might?

Bob

If that s the case then some mundane powers may well be flexing their might in taking retribution at assets of those covenants- "oops, did our army trample your vis?"

"Ruins and Reawakenings" and a Tribunal in late winter sound like good overarching concepts. Other things that should loom large:

  • the church and the Dominion. Quite apart from Rome, this is a heavily populated Tribunal, where wilderness (and magic and faerie auras) are scarce. This suggests one political cleavage among magi: adaptation vs... fleeing? While a whole Covenant of holy mages might be going too far, they should be present, and politically agitating both for a greater adoption and the end of pagan magical practices. Maybe the cleavage is adapting to the Christian present vs celebrating the pagan magical past?
  • the Cult of Mercury. Rome is the origins of the Order's magical tradition. Reminders of this - and people looking for them - should be everywhere. The Seekers should be a significant faction. Many Covenants should be on top of a Mercurian site, or heir to some ancient Roman mystery.
  • Rome: related to the above: its everywhere too. It affects the physical landscape and the mundane politics. It should affect the Hermetic landscape too, with some Covenants adopting Roman-style governance.
  • Urbanisation: the cities are where its at. There should be magi riding this.
  • Magvillus: this is more a constraint: the peripheral code of the Tribunal can't be too divergant from the norm (so no voting corruption - but they could have consuls or call themselves a senate or have a method of appointing a dictator in the peripheral code). The Traditionalist / Transitionalist debate should be alive and unsettled.

Agreed. This should be more than enough to provide us with the required framework.
Now we just need a 'tool box/workspace' and to start dividing the assignments. Since the attempts to get a 'manager/editor' have failed so far...

I'm just going to put my two cence in and say the idea of Ruins and Reawakenings is a really interesting idea. It talks about the past, what was and what everybody wishes it still was, but also about the future, what will be and what is to come. That is a very interesting theme, one that really isn't shared in any of the other Tribunals while not being radical in operation.

I think IdiotSavant really kind of hit the nail on the head with his various points, they all seem to fit really with with the region, giving plenty of opportunities and varities in style without causing everything to be about one single overarching theme (cough.demons.cough, sorry something got in my throat there for a moment).

I could totally see about playing in a place like that.

I do ask that we please don't ignore the potential of having magical sites in Roman cities (including Rome itself, though the center of the Church it also has some ancient locations and so Magic Aura should still exist) and vis sources in places of entertainng. Don't make it where Magic and Vis are rare or impossible to get or dissapearing or anything like that. I'm not saying make it abundant where vis can be found under every tree or stone and auras are everywhere, but a balance should be maintained so that different play styles can still occur.

Anyway I like the ideas presented and look forward to reading that which comes from it.

I have to say that if there is going to be a whole covenant of holy magi, tucked away in the papal estates is where I would expect to find it. Several of the could even be cardinals... which makes things quite curious if the Pope appoints a holy magus cardinal to administer the marches...

Hi everyone. I have read the forum many times, but is the first time I found such a motivating topic as to force me to register and offer an opinion.

I have read so many interesting ideas, I would like to share with you my elaboration about them too.
About governance of the tribunal, having Harco and Magvillus, as has been pointed out, should mean a huge impact. That doesn't necessarily translate into a good or fair system, but certainly, one which is efficiently oriented and with a consistent legal background.
On vis sources, I certainly agree that Rome Tribunal should have less resources than others, for reasons given before by many of you. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean that the Tribunal has scarcity of magical resources. As has been pointed out, Harco gathers resources far and wide by many different schemes; Magvillus can earn legal fees; Verdi sells enchanted items over all Europe. Also, if there are many good libraries in the tribunal, covenants can sell copies of their tractati to other, vis richer tribunals. In the worst case scenario, having a magic aura allows vis extraction as a last resource.
But that is something you all already know, so how can this be put together with mundane intrigue, roman traditions, and everything else mentioned on this thread... I would suggest an historical build up of rules.
In early 9th century the three domi magnae would have been central to the tribunal, which faced many problems: muslim pirates at the west, redcap network still been developed, no wish for interacting with mundanes and the papacy at its worst point. On the other hand, few magi for many resources and a newfound cooperative spirit. So they decided to implement a system to grow where every covenant has to do something to improve their lot. They put together they their resources in order to build "Obra Publica", where they distribute obligations as follow:

  • Building enchanted devices in order to improve communications and infrastructure, Merchere Portals included.
  • Guarding important the transport of vis, enchanted devices and harvesting problematic sites, dealing with local wizards (Legio).
  • Providing resources (Taxes).
    So there would be sites that will be held in common by the tribunal, which poses especially crafted enchanted devices that enable to harvest them, like Vesuvius or at the Tyrrhnian sea. In those days, Legio would be a heavy job imposed on poor covenants. At 1220, on the other hand, covenants will want to carry the nowadays safe obligations of harvesting vis or enchanting for the tribunal in order to avoid paying vis taxes. By some ruling, there may be a fixed time in which the entitled covenant has to come up with the vis harvest, else this responsability goes to another covenant, which has the same time frame to acomplish this. So the second covenant may try to prevent the first one to gather the resources.

Later, the tribunal start to become entangled in mundane politics, about an issue related to the papacy, which would explain the need for an hermetic proctor in the papal curia (The Church, pg 30). This event should relax previous policies about interference in mundane policies and allow covenants to work influence and intrigue in order to gain authorized access to relevant places, like ancient ruins where vis could be harvested and ancient magic related objects recovered. The tribunal would demand that consent from mundane authorities be secured before proceeding with these explorations.
At 1220, covenants would struggle between them in order to be allowed to access this ancient sites rich in vis, manipulating their mundane allies to exclude a rival covenant and grant them such privilege. And the other way around, mundanes would give preferential access to some magi in a covenant and not to others (provoking the Guelf and Gibelline friction inside covenants).

Hope this ideas add to the current brainstorming.

Si vales valeo.

The issue I have is that the entirety of this builds on a past spirit of cooperation which has recently turned sour, hile the order historically has been far more libertarian than cooperative, with the exception of Thebes. Also you are capitalizing on an idea not accepted- namely a historical bounty of vis sources that have since become insufficient. The fact that the three domus Magus bring in funds from other tribunals should be an indication of how these things will work- Harco will be a center of most income, from Verdi selling its enchantments to other covenants copying or writing books. Itally should be a center of hermetic commerce, the same as it was for mundane commerce. Additionally there are resources lacking elsewhere in Mythic Europe. Any records left by any cults of Rome will be in the Roman tribunal, even if they came from elsewhere. The cult of Mithras, Cult of Isis, and even Christianity had their roots elsewhere and all came to have major centers in Rome. Ancient magic and hedge wizards should be ripe for research in the Roman tribunal, with research being limited more by the wealth of resources to be dug through than a scarcity of them.

Good reference on the proctor. This is a story seed, sidebar upper left.

I can believe there have been Hermetic proctors (sort of like what Americans would call a lobbyist), and may be one at the moment, but don't expect it's a constantly held position.

I am running into a similar issue with stories in Catalonia (we're practically on the modern French-Spanish border). Italy itself would be even thicker in stories, resources, local culture. Very appropriate for the theme: Winter Ruins. There's a lot at hand in Rome, but much of it is partial, forgotten, worn down, or buried.

Having a Tribunal in a general state of neglect and struggling to shift to a new generation is different. Conservative and divided Magvillus, hide-bound and struggling for relevance Verdi, worn-in and comfortable but spritely Harco making up the corners of the Tribunal, held up by a number of other Winter covenants, with a few Autumn and fewer Summer covenants, all suppressing the growth of Spring upstarts, forcing would-be colonists to find a niche to survive in...

Verdi, I think, probably has a back-log of devices, triggers and often functions forgotten. Magvillus is increasingly struggling with legal and social issues, and challenges posed by ever-growing numbers of mortals and conflicts between mundanes and magi. Harco continues to manage decently, but the increase in trade traffic is starting to wear away. Winter does not affect Domus Magni as badly as other covenants; there's enough fresh blood flowing that they are very resistant. Verdi, then, has a great challenge on its hands, if its status transfers to Thebes.

That is not the case with the other covenants of the Tribunal; many of them have declined, collapsed, even slipped away into regios. Some are targets for other covenants; some applied to by young magi with radical new ideas (whippersnappers!) and dreams of rebuilding; and some gracefully passing by choice.