The sword of Damocles -- a problem in Magic Theory

As I said, the spell is an example to analyze just when Finesse is required to ReTe objects, and when not.
I am not particularly interested in the magnitudes, by which a spell's level needs to be increased to have an item follow a grog around.

Cheers

Uh? I checked the link, but I can find no differences between the two corresponding portions of text. Nor does my post show sign of any edits.
I wrote overexerting, you wrote overextending (and added "in time"). I'm sorry but communication between us is getting worse :smiley:

Yes! Chocolate is another :smiley: Frankly, this whole thing is getting surreal. Let's move on, shall we?

That is, because you deleted an entire paragraph from that text of yours, to which I responded.

Cheers :smiley:

The fact that I did not even realize that you were responding to that paragraph of mine (which I then removed as irrelevant) shows that we have really failed to understand each other's points. I still fail to see in my entire post a single instance of the word "overextending", which you then refer to. So, as I said, let's move on.

I think the spell must either target the grog or have corpus req. It seems to have two targets.

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Here is an approach, that looks to me like it works:

The Sword Follows its Assigned Wearer ReTe 60 (R: Touch, T: Ind, D: Sun) Ritual
Transports the item you touch to within a pace of a person or animal, of which you hold an Arcane Connection. If it is not a Terram item, you need to include casting requisites. The transported item will hover near the person or animal, and for the Duration of the spell follow it around at the distance of about a pace. It cannot perform precise or complex maneuvers. At the expiration of the spell, the transported item falls down. The spell does not need any Finesse. It is a ritual only because of its level.
(Base 25 [MoH p.92], R:+1, D: +2, metal: +2, complexity: +2)

It uses an AC to define the person (or animal, because 'we can') which the item follows around, and extends the ReTe guideline for object transport with some hovering and following at its destination.

Cheers

This seems plausible!

R: Touch to sword plus an AC of the target to be hovered over?

Touch to sword, plus AC to a target that the sword first gets teleported to (that's the guideline One Shot was referencing).
I can't fathom why One Shot decided he wanted to involve teleportation to AC range, but I guess that's the "because we can" part :slight_smile:
It's not obvious that the spell works, but I'd say that if it does work, there are much lower level spells that just get a sword following a grog you start reasonably close to.

Having an AC to the target is a reasonable way for the spell to account for that target.

Adding an InCo effect to the spell would also be reasonable.

Hmm. Let's look at Coat of Flame, from the corebook. Does it need an AC or an InCo effect to follow the victim around for its Diameter duration? Nope! (Thanks to ... uhm, callen, I think, for pointing this example out).

InCo or an AC is not required to target victims of auto-hit spells, so I find it strange that it would be needed here. It certainly does not make sense in terms of many other Core spells.

i.e. Crystal Dart knows that it is meant to hurt that one person among the three standing by a door.

Though I agree with your conclusions, I think that the problem with the reasoning is that Crystal Dart and virtually every other "auto-hit" spell are D:Mom, so one could argue that it's the magus who is actively "giving directions" to an otherwise dumb spell, so to speak. To make your case, you'd need a spell that makes something "keep going after the target" with some duration that's neither D:Mom nor D:Conc.

Just to start with a published guideline.

Cheers

A spell which keeps going after the initial casting, using Rego, which must adapt to external changes on a target is Controlled Growth (ReHe25)(MoH p39).
The caster decides what shape they want from a target plant when casting, and then for the very long duration of the spell (a year in fact!), the Rego effect restricts the shape the plant can grow into. It holds, restricts movement, and guides the growth while the effect is active.

It is not a 100% match, but then if it were we wouldn't need to debate it.

It is very close to the same concept, and supports the idea that Rego can hold an item in place, and also adapt to moderate changing conditions without either Finesse, concentration, or attention.

My problem with this is I assume that in ME we are able to use the concept of absolute position. In which case telling a spell to hold something in place, or move in a set way relative to that reference point is fine. But causing something to follow something else with its own motive power, seems altogether more complicated.

Bob

There is indeed an InCo guideline:

It also allows to identify a person by AC, without needing to start with the usual high level guidelines that use AC.

But you will have to use InCo requisites with your ReTe, which might not fit the character concept of ezzelino's 'fidanzata', and throw yourself at the mercy of your troupe by combining two guidelines in a non-trivial way.

Cheers

So you think it is implausible given the similar examples or just adds complexity in mags?

To which I reply a firm and definite "Um..."

Bob

The distinction I see with Coat of Flames, is that there is not a gap between the thing on fire and the fire.

I'm not sure, but I think the target Ind in that is (Using the base 5 guideline: Create a fire doing +5 damage in an unnatural shape such as... covering an item) is the individual being set aflame not the individual fire. (I am very easily prepared to be argued out of that).

Given that Casting requisites are by default not listed, I'm quite bewildered as to whether Coat of Flame requires casting requisites to coat objects which do not naturally burn, but not if they are intrinsically flammable.

So I can see that Sword of Damocles might need a corpus requisite to follow a person, but to me the adjacency of the Sword of Damocles makes this example not quite close enough to provide support, for not also need an Intellego requisite to follow at a slight distance a person.

Or maybe I'm over-thinking this.

Bob

Bob