If there is such a rule it is extremely gamey. Why should there not be a way do reduce botches on Finesse if you can do it with other skills and even spells?
AFAIK botching cannot be eliminated for /any/ ability. Finesse is the same as anything else.
Spells make the exception, and given that spells are feats from an entirely different domain, I do not have a problem with the rules being different.
The bottom line is, this is a great a problem as you make it in your troupe.
I could understand a rule where botches can not be avoided on spells at all given the unnatural and unpredictable nature of this phenomenon. That you can not reduce botches on skills in some way (I actually thought you could do that with Virtues but it might be a house rule) is a flaw in the system as that would reflect a higher understanding of the skill (as in real life). I.e. a professional football player is less likely to botch a kick-off than a five year old.
The point is valid, and definitely goes on the list of things to review for 6ed. However, it does not break the system. It is fair, balanced, consistent, and playable as is.
Not sure that is true. The five-year old is more likely to send the ball in the wrong direction, but the pro is more likely to overreach and sprain his ankle or whatever.
We are really back to the very first reply to OP. Do you have an alternative?
It is never going to be perfect, but no doubt one can do better, but every fix comes with the risk of breaking something else (and a quick fix is almost certain to break something). Playing up the problems you see is not the way to enjoy the game.
Alright. The soccer player has a twin brother who is a professional basket player (Soccer skill 0). The soccer-brother has a skill of 7. Who is more likely to botch a kick-off?
Depends on the rules system you use. D&D and Ars, same probability. WOD the professional soccer player has the option to botch MORE than the basketball player. Other systems have their own quirks and advantages as well.
I was talking about a real situation and how this should be reasonably reflected in a game.
I do not have my books in front of me at the moment.
Can't you take Careful with [skill] to reduce botches? If not then it should be a virtue. More experienced craftsmen would be less likely to botch. Not take it away totally but less likely.
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What about Cautious with Ability (ArM5 p.40)? This virtue reduces the number of botch dice by 2, which can result in no botch dice.
Anyone considering a magus specialized in targeted spells should consider this virtue, IMHO.
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Yes and no. Cautious with * is more powerful than I thought, with two fewer botch dice potentially down to zero. It is not as powerful as spell mastery where you can develop your ability to reduce by much more, and the virtue is not as easily learnt as an ability.
Whether this is a real issue really depends on how often the troupe apply multiple botch dice. If you treat Finesse as a supernatural ability adding aura to the botch dice, the virtue is going to fall short fairly often. I do not subscribe to such interpretation but I have met players/SGs who seem to do. If a difficult combat situation calls for three botch dice, you are left with one botch die often enough to make it dangerous.
But you are absolutely right. If you take a magical focus to do injury with moving objects, you should certainly back it up with cautious with finesse. That's a good combo.
Games aren't real. Botching is extreme failing. The 5-year old fails to make the goal, the professional is far less likely. In a non-stress situation, neither botches. In a stress-situation, like a defender barreling down on you, the kid is likely to run away scared and stumble, the professional could roll his/her ankle with a 1% chance (per ArM5 rules); I find arguing the right percentage so marginal to be useless.
+3 botch dice for not having the skill? (As per ArM5, p. 62).
Also, I think you just might be seriously underestimating the number of injuries pro athletes suffer.
I disagree with the initial argument. Parma is as cool as you narrate it. Also Parma is easily beaten. The core book fresh out of Gauntlet Flam. could make a charge Pillium of Flame first season that has a pen. of +50. I'd much rather face the guy with the rock, and here is why. If someone beats your PM, which again, with 1 season of prep most magi can do, you only have one chance to fast cast, or you're dead. That fast cast has to be half the level of the spell. That can be pretty daunting to spont. for a lot of spells.
The guy with the rock however, you have 3 chances to save your life. 1. He could miss, 2. you can fast cast a very low level spell to stop the rock (Some as low as level 4 or 5 will do the trick) 3. All else fails you get a defence roll like any other missile attack.
I don't see a balance issue here. Also your ruling on invisibility creates all new loopholes. It makes an invisible assassin a perfect weapon against a magi. The invisibility only fails when he stabs you, no save, no defence, no parma. Dead magi. Then just recast invisibility and leave. No problem.
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The Precise Casting Spell Mastery Ability in HoH:S page 34 reduces Finesse botch dice for the spell by one per purchase.
Three words, loke: Cautious with Finesse
But the minimum is 1, Jason72. The only way I know to reduce to 0 is Cautious with (Ability)
... and combine the two and you can make a fine combat wizard ...
I was not aware of all the options, I just knew each was limited in itself. When you take them all together, well ...
I still think finesse and penetration are balanced. Each has its pros and cons.
One which has not been mentioned, I think, it is very hard to circumvent PM out of sight. If you can penetrate, you can kill over an arcane connection.
Anyway, you should not be targeted by your attack with only one botch
That, I think, depends very much on the spectacularity of what you attempt.
I'd generally go for three botches before death becomes a serious possibility. It does depend on what you're doing, though - Ignem botches are explicitly more dangerous than usual, and both Defence rolls and LLSM rolls can kill you with a single botch.