I experienced so action makes the players interested the best. When we played politics and such the guys want to get home at 10 pm. But in action they somehow forget to cease the game and willing to play till 11 pm. (We play on workdays.)
Action means usually some violance.
I'm interested if you could give some "peaceful" hooks because there isn't any combat mage between our 5 magi. There is a mentem specialist so it limits the possibilities, too. I can measure their tension level easily.
Respectful criticism; that one line doesn't make up for the three page saga that it replaced. Societas gives us an unknown Frankish boy, places the naive lad under the tutalage of an old man that gets killed in a paragraph or two, and then glosses over a lot until Trianoma comes along. The F# version had Reculed born into a world of violence, training in battle since he could stand, then partnered with Delendar. It was he that trained Delendar in proper warfare, and the sense of battlefield camaraderie the two had is lacking in the new version. There is Delendar's dramatic death, Flambeau amongst the Franks, and so much more that indeed was deleted or glossed over (not to mention the Battle of Tagus Tower).
On the other hand, the current House you created is very much to my liking. I still do have some issues, like the contest of seven champions, but admittedly these are nostalgia. If you read that old post of mine (and I wish you would acknowledge whether you read it or not), you will clearly see that your vision for "modern" House Flambeau closely matches what I was thinking. I think that the Legion of Mithras has coopted the House, which is not to my liking, but can make for an interestin story based upon a political struggle between the Mithrites and the True Flambeau 
double post, sorry 
That's a fair statement.
We are drifting off-topic here, but for the benefit of bystanders, Mark is a critic of the new portrayal of Flambeau in HoH: Societates, which is different from the old 3rd Edition portrayal in Houses of Hermes and Tribunals of Hermes: Iberia. We had a big go-around on the Berk List about that.
Sorry to re-open that discussion; I thought Mark was saying something inaccurate (that Flambeau-in-5th-edition did not have a violent past). But really it appears that he's saying Flambeau's violent past was better written in 3rd edition. I think that's a perfectly legitimate point of view. (It's also my opinion that the Societates Flambeau's past is not as violent as in 3rd Ed.)
Oh and BTW Mark I am pretty sure I read everything you said about Flambeau since Societates came out but I don't offhand remember what post you are asking about (whether I've read it). Maybe we should take that up in PM or e-mail.
Just like this thread being about fundamentally considering the nature of the Order, I think it's kind of fun to come up with some variations on aspects of the game. IIRC, one of my troupe-mates says he still relates stronger to the earliest edition of 'Covenants.' And I kinda liken it to different interpretations on the same piece of classical music. Someone's gonna get ticked that the tempo was too fast (Glenn Gould on piano, for instance) or that some section of the orchestra had too different a color. But I digress.
I keep coming back to this thread because I like the fundamental question. I was wondering if there could be a new score in a different kind of warping that could be used for violence that would make any character think three times (unless having a flaw like 'viciously tempered,' reckless or 'warrior' virtue or other) before engaging in various violence over the length of a saga.
Sweet quote of Issac Hayes -> "...Shut your mouth! I'm talking about Chi-town." 
IMS we have a core group of three senior magi (and a bunch of younger ones). Of the three senior magi, one was an ex-bandit, one a totally conniving bastard and the third a psychopathic necromancer.
So a kill heavy game one would expect?
But whats happened?
The bandit joined the legion of Mithras and became a devout Christian. He fights sure, but only against evil and he bitterly regrets the lives he took in a more cavalier fashion earlier in his life.
The sneaky magus rarely kills but is probably the most prolific killer. He has killed innocents ad other magi, sometims for very good reasons, sometimes not. Nominally a christian, he exhibits little remorse.
The psychopathic necromancer simply doesn't "get" people. He is solely interested in magic and necromancy. He kills casually and without remorse but rarely feels the need to. He actually kills very few people and only does so if he feels it is the "easiest way" to accomplish a mission/quest/etc. Both his sodalis tend to get on ok with him but are deeply disturbed when he casually suggests murder as a solution to problems.
The psychopaths ex-apprentice (also a played magus) is, on the other hand a pacifist who has never killed anyone, indeed, he finds the idea abhorrent. It was his apprenticeship and the things he saw that convinced him that violence is a poor path to take.
So in our game wee run the gamut. Sure, most of our magi are combat ready, but then, so are most nobility in this day and age.
Its a brutal era, and occasionally even good people need to resort to violence to protect themselves and their friends.
Thanx
To clairify, I don't think it was any work of great literature, but like a favorite comic book or b-movie, it captured and held grasp of my imagination. I also think that the general revisionist tendency of 5th edition has been a bad policy (note my code, it says 5 +/-. I love the 5th ed rules and feel that they are superior to any edition previous, but I do lament the loss of 4th ed cannon).
I can deal with him being slightly less violent too, but not toned as far down as you suggest. You changed the killing of 50 hedge wizards into a contest against one. Ancient Magic added back in the Varidian's Tomb story, and changed it from mercilessly stalking them all down while laughing into a struggle against evil necromancers. I would have rather that this was the approach taken.
But Like I have said, I have learned to accept it. The important aspect is the House today, and you did give us something very good indeed. Only nostalgia nuts like me seem to care anyway, and most sagas will probably not hinge on the Founder's past. However, if anyone does want to base a story upon the history of Flambeau, I do suggest that you use both Societas and Iberia for reference. Duresca, Barcelona Covenant, and the story of Flambeau are the three things worth salvaging from that book.
To answer the question of my whereabouts from Marko Markoko. I am from Sweden and perhaps you are from a crime infected area where violence is common. But from where I come from there is few who have been involved in any from of violence except for the few school yard fights that a few get into. Perhaps I got a strange selection of friends and family but there are few who do not go alone in the night time in cities.
Stupid me, I could have just looked over in the margin and spotted that. However, more specifically, where in Sweeden? City, Suburbs, or Rural? And I meant no disrespect, I was honestly curious. Your answer enlightens me. AFAIK, Sweeden is one of the most peaceful and prosperous nations, many ranks ahead of the US. Back a thousand years ago though, Sweeden did indeed export much violence
I was honestly seeking an outside perspective on my own nation. I do live in an iteresting part of the city (I'll describe it in my blog sometime), but I am not from here. I am from the suburbs of Chicago. And most people I know don't take shortcuts though back alles at 2 in the morning because they are out of cigarettes (plus side, the mouth stitches made me quit smoking). So I will admit that I live a little more dangerously than most. I do I lot of crazy stuff I suppose, kind of ignorant in my fearlessness seeing as I can't fight as well as I thought I could. Maybe I have the -3 Overconfidence Flaw (I still label v&f's as +/- 1 or 3 for ease of book keeping)
Still, having said that and making allowances for different circunstances, I find a lifetime of zero exposure to violence somewhat unusual. It is no insult, rather, it is the grace of God I suppose. Maybe America is more violent. I dunno. And Now that I think about it, Sweeden I don't think Sweeden has suffered war for a very long time. Again, a blessing my friend
I would say, based on experiences abroad, the US falls in the middle of things. While I live in a rural area, I used to live just 90 miles north of Marko's location ... Milwaukee, WI. There were portions of the city I would not willingly go into without an APC. Even the suburb I lived in had some violence, many due to petty crime in the area, and some gang related activity. Some of the safest areas in the country, ironically, are some of the most heavily armed communities I've seen outside of a military base.
However, It is my opinion that violent crime happens every where; In the US, it will usually involve guns. In the UK (and Domionions), it will probably be more personal, involving fists, knives, etc. Go into the Middle East region, it gets worse. The more spectacular it gets, the more likely it will get mass media coverage.
The last war the US had on it's on soil was the Civil War in the 1860's. I think Sweden's memories of modern warfare are a little more recent. But the Swedes and the Danes were quite agressive early on...
Anyway...
My favorite character is my first maga, a very old school fire-ball tossing flambeau. However, she has never killed in anger, only in defense - not of herself, but of others who were clearly overmatched. Being Christian, she regularly goes to confession, though there has been some difficulty with the local clergy. So, a small village priest handles it. Has she agonized over it? No. She's charged with the military reality of running a castle in a near indefensible location (a castle in the middle of the wood...what were we thinking???). Good thing it's a remote location.
My point (badly made) is that I can't remember how many people have met their demise at her hands, personally - but less than a handful.
Our grogs and companions, on the other hand, are another story...
Steve
I would say, based on experiences abroad, the US falls in the middle of things. While I live in a rural area, I used to live just 90 miles north of Marko's location ... Milwaukee, WI. There were portions of the city I would not willingly go into without an APC. Even the suburb I lived in had some violence, many due to petty crime in the area, and some gang related activity. Some of the safest areas in the country, ironically, are some of the most heavily armed communities I've seen outside of a military base.
However, It is my opinion that violent crime happens every where; In the US, it will usually involve guns. In the UK (and Domionions), it will probably be more personal, involving fists, knives, etc. Go into the Middle East region, it gets worse. The more spectacular it gets, the more likely it will get mass media coverage.
The last war the US had on it's on soil was the Civil War in the 1860's. I think Sweden's memories of modern warfare are a little more recent. But the Swedes and the Danes were quite agressive early on...
Anyway...
My favorite character is my first maga, a very old school fire-ball tossing flambeau. However, she has never killed in anger, only in defense - not of herself, but of others who were clearly overmatched. Being Christian, she regularly goes to confession, though there has been some difficulty with the local clergy. So, a small village priest handles it. Has she agonized over it? No. She's charged with the military reality of running a castle in a near indefensible location (a castle in the middle of the wood...what were we thinking???). Good thing it's a remote location.
My point (badly made) is that I can't remember how many people have met their demise at her hands, personally - but less than a handful.
Our grogs and companions, on the other hand, are another story...
Steve
I would say, based on experiences abroad, the US falls in the middle of things. While I live in a rural area, I used to live just 90 miles north of Marko's location ... Milwaukee, WI. There were portions of the city I would not willingly go into without an APC. Even the suburb I lived in had some violence, many due to petty crime in the area, and some gang related activity. Some of the safest areas in the country, ironically, are some of the most heavily armed communities I've seen outside of a military base.
However, It is my opinion that violent crime happens every where; In the US, it will usually involve guns. In the UK (and Domionions), it will probably be more personal, involving fists, knives, etc. Go into the Middle East region, it gets worse. The more spectacular it gets, the more likely it will get mass media coverage.
The last war the US had on it's on soil was the Civil War in the 1860's. I think Sweden's memories of modern warfare are a little more recent. But the Swedes and the Danes were quite agressive early on...
Anyway...
My favorite character is my first maga, a very old school fire-ball tossing flambeau. However, she has never killed in anger, only in defense - not of herself, but of others who were clearly overmatched. Being Christian, she regularly goes to confession, though there has been some difficulty with the local clergy. So, a small village priest handles it. Has she agonized over killing someone? No. She's charged with the military reality of running a castle in a near indefensible location (a castle in the middle of the wood...what were we thinking???). Good thing it's a remote location.
My point (badly made) is that I can't remember how many people have met their demise at her hands, personally - but less than a handful.
Our grogs and companions, on the other hand, are another story...
Steve
Sorry I didn’t clarify that much of my heritage, after all I live in a land that are about the size of California and with a population of about nine million people. Yes, Sweden did stop with the fighting and warmongering a few years ago (1809 c.e. if my memory serves me right) and was at a time a large military power in this part of the world. But now to more recent history and that of my own. I was born in a rural area but not more than a Swedish mile from a city called Borlänge (don’t try to pronounce that) and lived there for a large amount of my life. Borlänge where in the 90s one of the most crime infested cities of the land if one take account of the size of the city (about 40000 inhabitants). I moved into the city in the early 2000. nowadays I have moved to a city that is called Östersund and is close to the middle of Sweden, it is a regional centre of a province called Jämtland (conquered from the Danish crown in 1645 c.e.) and has a rather large drug problem. Even though there is crimes in Sweden there are perhaps very few compared to a similar size city in the US with the same ramifications. I one is looking for history on Sweden and its military adventures in the world then one should not go back to the Vikings (Sweden didn’t exist then, much to the disappointment of nationalist groups) but one should learn more about the early modern period (In Sweden’s case from 1521-1809 c.e. , in other parts of Europe from about 1450-1750 c.e.).
About Ars Magica and violence. There are a few things that I think of when it comes to magi and violence. Yes the medieval times are more violent than today, at least in some palces. This is because there is no authority who can maintain the peace in the same way that a modern state can. It is easy to learn and magi are in a great risk. For example The invisible sling of Vilano or The crystal dart can be learned by most magi without any problem and helps them defend themselves. It is less than a season’s work. Compare that to the time spent to master a blade. It is a good thing, from my point of view, that there is no incitement to slay any other human for XP, only vis in some magical creatures, and there isn’t a need for one to slay your foe. From a few wounds most men and women back out of a fight if they have the opportunity, at least that’s my thought.
I think the most dangerous thing I have ever been in real life has been once being robbed by a 30-ish bully when I was 12 (he stole my cheap watch, but didn't get my wallet) and berating against a car that had just crushed me (and my bike) before falling uncoscious from trauma. Not much dangerous crime around here (Barcelona, Spain, middle/professional class kind of people) either. I have never seen a gun in other hands than those of the police. IN fact city police does not carry guns in Barcelona.
INteresting the fact that most characters seem to0 be sociopathic in design, but do not perform as such once they get over the tresholdf of being able to kill with ease. Seems that safety (not being able to be killed, and being able to retailate at will) makes them LESS prone to random (killer) violence 
Cheers,
Xavi
This is consistent with the "warrior code" of many cultures: practice violence but exercise restraint. We see this in European chivalry, Japanese bushido, and among the North American nomads. It may be universal.
You mean Native Americans, aka Amerinds? Ah... that varies wildly, and depends on the exact tribe. Some were like that, others were as brutally callous in their killing, and torture of enemies as any BBEG you care to name.
And the medieval Japanese also...
Death has been very casual during some eras and in some cultures. It gets romanticized at times, swept under the rug at others, but before a culture (The entire ~culture~, not noteworthy minority elements within it) gets the idea to be merciful, they have to have the technology to be. In a primitive society, where both food was often hand to mouth and medical care was a crap-shot at best, death was often just another aspect of life.
I've been rereading old Conans, both Howard reprints and Savage Sword reprints. One theme that comes up again and agai is how death is so familiar to Conan, a constant companion. Just as everyone breaths, everyone sooner or later must die. No use fretting about it, and no use getting squeemish. One thing I noticed: Conan has no qualms in killing multiple many men, slaying by the score, hacking them like a butcher even as they cry for mercy. Yet Conan is unable to (directly) slay a woman, is utterly loyal to his comrades, and I don't think I have ever seen him kill someone who ws unconscious.
Now, Conan is pure fiction, in part based on his history and anthropology studies, but mostly based on Texas tough guys, cattle men and oil riggers.
As an aside, most people familiar with Conan, unless they have read a signifigant amount of orginal Howard material, tend to gloss over the fact that he is supposed to be extremely smart (speaks over 12 languages, reads in half of them).
Now, as for the middle ages, these were indeed brutal times and life was cheep. The lower on the social scale, the cheeper it was. But here is an interesting fact; medievial England did nt have torture. They had horrible and grusome methods of execution, but torture as legal interrogation was virtually unknown. When the order came down to torture the Templars, the king of England had to import interregators from France. In all of England, only 3 Templars were arrested. The rest disappeared into the night. The ones arrested were treated like house guests instead of prisoners, and were all allowed to go free in the end.
For conspiracy theorists, when I was in Scotland, I went to visit the field and memorial of Banockburn. There I saw a newspaper article that stated that the famous "camp follower" attack on the English caused so widespread terror in the English force because there were 50-ish special dudes leading the charge: a company of templars dressed in full Templar panoply
Anyone heard about this?
Makes for cool story material, even if it is the only instance where I have read it. Pitty the templars are so far removed from our saga time.
Cheers,
Xavi
Yes, and this is actually true history afaik. I don't know about them wearing full regalia, but otherwise I believe this is true.
You want some good conspiracy? Not that Umberto claptrap? Read "Born in Blood". Basically, it ascribes Wat Tyler's Peasent rebellion to a secret society descended from fugitive Templars. I believe this to be true, and it would explain a lot about the history and traditions of the Masonic Lodge