There seems to be scope for a whole new supplement on gender and gender roles in Mythic Europe. Maybe with a good chunk of the book devoted to characters following the the pattern of the 4ed Medieval Tapestry.
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I'm glad we're not moving in the direction of a general flaw that encompasses such wide variety of non-conformity as religion and sex, because I think there is a richer game when we have different virtues and flaws for such concepts as Pagan, Castratus and Eunuch. Without wanting to derail the conversation too much, I would point out that there are interesting medieval terms to described the realities of intersex people that don't come with the loaded issues behind the word transvestite. One of those was "apandro" (becoming male): https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-94-011-1664-0_6
I'm not sure if there's an equivalent word for becoming female.
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Obese is a clinical term I am seriously Obese, I assure you it is a physical flaw . Really being sensitive to an accurate description of your physical nature is a problem. I would have to spend a lot of time being angry at Doctors and Nurses who point out to me this problem. When describing an Overly fat NPC I would tend to say looks like me .
Overall though the game flaw is much less serious than the real world problem based on my medical discussions it should also be giving a negative modifer to aging rolls.
There is no way to avoid every persons sensitive buttons in a published product particularly one which hs to reflect a mind set which is not modern. It is really down to each group to avoid the sensitive issues of each player , frankly using real world religions could easily cause far more problems than anything else and that is unavoidable.
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Absolutely. At the danger of going off-topic, I would recommend World-Tree.
It has a magic system closely resembling Ars Magica's, so here we feel at home. It does not, though have the long term advancement rules, nor does it encourage troupe play. Nor did it survive long enough to get a reasonable selection of supplements.
But - it should avoid most sensitivity issues of the real world - the world is completely alien.
The world is not round. You live on the branches of a very big Tree.
It is not as alien as it could have been. Half of the prime species (say player races though the authors would have objected) are humanoid, and six out of eight have two genders. But you can always focus on the three-gendered cricket folk or the unisex Zi-Ri to avoid any real world gender connotations.
There are very good reasons to play in a pure fantasy world, to escape from everything which is difficult in the real world, and a published pure fantasy version of Ars Magica would have merit.
Personally, I still want to play in Mythic Europe, and make it as medieval as possible.
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Where my perspective is that I want the flexibility to make my own worlds. D&D allows that, so long as they fit within the genre of swords and sorcery style fantasy. It also lacks any form of structural design elements beyond combat capabilities.
Ars magica has a great system, for a very narrow range of alternate histories where magic exists. I would like to broaden the scope.
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I like this revision.
I'd also add that you should include the point, in the second section, that:
"Virtues are about the stories you know you'll have, while Flaws are about the stories you'll be surprised with over the course of play."
(or approximately. I'm quoting you. Poorly, but it's a fundamental element that's really helped me explain Flaws in play that has got people not trying to figure out how to minimize them.)
That's the Saint Marinos I mentioned before.
Wow, no. Flaws are either stories that get in the way or elements that limit how you are able to deal with events around you.
- Story Flaws in particular are stories you're a fool if you're not expecting, even if your character doesn't.
- Personality Flaws also tend to generate stories - or at least scenes - that are, maybe, harder to predict.
But to claim that they are stories to be surprised over? Hardly.
I'm rather more surprised when someone comes up with a story based on my virtues...
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I think it appears later and is backdated to the C13th.
Also, it's told by people who hate Catholics, so...
You force me to hunt it down. Specifically:
but as I noted, I was remembering it poorly, and relying on David to remember it better, hopefully with my prompt.
But I think my point falls in line with it, too. I make someone with Puissant Ability, I want to have stories where that character uses that ability. The SG goes in knowing I want that, and I have a reasonable expectation to use that ability. I expect my virtues to be the signposts to the playstyle I am hoping to see from arc to arc.
I make a character with Tormenting Master, I'm not expecting the wizard to show up all the time, their appearance will be a surprise. I don't expect flaws to be a part of every story, I expect them to be the spice that seasons the main course.
When you say "in the way," I see that as obstacles, which are at the heart of the stories-- the personalized challenges to overcome alongside the arc's external challenges.
When I say "surprised over" I mean that those Flaw-inspired stories are unexpected. For instance, the wizard went to meet with their Parens, and the Companion traveling with them was recognized by an old acquaintance in town who leaned on the Companion's Favors flaw, which created an entire subplot, separate from the wizard's primary mission.
You don't know when stories, arcs, scenes, events incorporating flaws will come up. They're "unexpected."
You plan on stories utilizing the elements of your Virtues, because those are the things you've built your character to do, and the SG is supposed to be paying attention to what characters are good at, and tailoring material to them is part of the gig.
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I would think that the 13th century has enough different works telling it. Backdating all of them would not have been possible.
Of course, neither is taking them as relevant historical sources on Pope Joan, Johannes Anglicus etc.
EDIT: The 13th century sources about Pope Joan are Dominican chroniclers, preachers and an early inquisitor: people who have their ear on the ground and are credible sources for hearsay and gossip of others. It is very telling that they believed it.
So it makes sense in your standard 1220 saga to have rumors about Pope Joan among clergy and townspeople.
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One difference being, at least according to the wiki article, that Saint Marina is still venerated by both Eastern Orthodox and Catholics as a saint, with this story told, which would be very difficult for Catholic haters to accomplish.
Which can be confirmed here on a website supported by the Catholic church.
@Jank, @Timothy_Ferguson and I were writing about 13th century sources mentioning Pope Joan.
Saint Marina is a Catholic saint. No Catholic haters involved there.
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That was not clear. Pope Joan is clearly a legend even if true, which is improbable. One does not keep their head down and make pope (except 1 time in the middle of the 12th century- pope Eugene III, but...)
@Colleen -- I very much approve of the adjustment of this flaw to "gender non-conforming," but was also concerned. The idea of Ars Magica explicitly defining playing a character of the female gender as a flaw didn't seem in-line with the conversations I'd had with the creators Jonathan Tweet, or Mark Rein*Hagen, or especially Lisa Stevens, who was responsible for editing and compiling the first and second editions of the game.
I have access to the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th editions, so I reviewed them closely and didn't see it, and I am checking with a friend I know with a 1st edition, but I'm really trying find the reference you mentioned. I think it's important for the language here to be considerate in the edition going forward, and think the modification to "gender non-conforming" is good, but I also want to also understand the legacy of the game I love. Knowing the source of your experience would be important.
I also know that perceptions can be muddled or conflated with house rules on occasion. The existence of such text has really no impact on changing the flaw, but does reflect on the reputation of Ars-- I'd rather not have to have conversations with new players that begin, "Isn't there an edition of that game where being female identifying was a flaw?" It becomes an obstacle I don't want to need to overcome later.
Thanks for sharing your experiences and thoughts; they're very appreciated.
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Hi,
I think that transvestite entered ARS magica in third edition, which perhaps itself encapsulates the entire problem. Third edition was extra special in some ways, especially as the line matured, if we wish to use that word. It was progressive in a very early 90s way, which is to say not at all progressive by today's standards. New paragraph new paragraph
I think it is fair to call that kind of sensitivity exploitative, though I do not believe it was deliberate. By some measure, it could be said that simply allowing the issue to be put into the spotlight is a step forward. I don't think it's true, neither then nor now, but it is an easy mistake to make. New paragraph
I suspect that any choice we make today will not hold up well 20 years from now. And some of those reasons 20 years from now will probably be good reasons, rather than just the flavor of the day.
I think it would be best for the flaw to be utterly removed. The flaws that are listed and the virtues and aspects of a character called out that are neither flaws nor virtue, represent areas that the game wants us to especially think about. By any name, an attribute of gender conforming or gender non-conforming or transvestite announces quote look pay attention to this unquote. New paragraph
A sidebar or section talking about gender roles with historical examples that be lie expectations might be more useful and more interesting say something about the world and let players do something with it.
But if this is something that we really do want to call out within the setting, then sure, we need something, similar to the way the game seems to need material about Judaism, even though no matter what is written it never sits comfortably. Though better than most games that try.
That said, I really like the proposed section about how story and personality flaws work.
Anyway,
Ken
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To me these are all points about why the game should move away from being historical and towards a more fantasy setting as well. I mean if you do manage to strip all the bigotry out of the middle ages is it still the middle ages anymore? How do you stay out of that cesspool of controversy?
also worth consideration- if we stick to the idea of the middle ages as the people in the middle ages saw it, are homosexuals in the game generally condemned to hell? After all that would have been as much the prevailing opinion as demons allotted to the seven deadly sins.
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We've gotten a bunch of notices about posts in this thread being flagged for inappropriateness. I can see that it's a fraught subject, but I'd like to ask that if you want to join the conversation that you consider your words carefully. If we get more flag notifications I'll likely close the thread. Thank you for respecting your fellow forum users.
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Hi Ben---
(direct answer) I'm not sure about the edition! This was mid 2000s but I don't know if my group was 'cutting edge' or using an older version. I hadn't considered that it might have been a house rule passed off as RAW... that's possible.... especially given the guys in the group. I was told I had to take the flaw, and it would limit my characters social reactions. Played for a few weeks, but wound up not feeling comfortable with the vibe. Years later I read a free online rulebook for Ars Magica (I think that was 4th edition?) saw that the rule had changed, and then started buying the 5th edition materials since that's what folks were currently playing. Thank you for checking earlier materials, I only have 4&5.
(less direct answer) I'm not sure how much the edition, or my faulty memory matters. My basic point was that being a woman isn't a flaw despite social realities of the time period, so why does trans or non binary identity need to be a flaw? I was only using my experiences to explain why the topic mattered to me, and why I was bringing up a sensitive subject.
Honestly, I'm kinda surprised that my recollection is an issue at all! I made a small proposal in a much larger series of errata suggestions. That post was shifted into it's own thread, at which point it triggered a whole lot of reactions. Some of those reactions were very angry/intense, so I tried to disengage and not respond rather than get sucked into an unhealthy dynamic, and even said as much in a post.
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There's a couple of points to respond to here, but first I wanted to say, "thank you for replying; I appreciate it."
Most important here, I feel, was having the courage to say "couldn't we change the perception of this game element?" And I don't want to minimize it, but rather acknowledge it. I think the conversation out of it has been beneficial. It was a brave thing.
But, the concerning underlying point to your statement, which prompted me to go research, is that there could be an unidentified mechanical equivalent of a historical offense in the game. The memory isn't the point, the further, potentially hidden, hurtful choice was. A mechanical choice of that kind of tone deafness, on par with say Space:1889's only available character class for women being "adventurer" (or similar)-- that should be identified and resolved is not the sort of thing you want to discover on accident or have put up in counter-point, should you recommend this game to people, and I'm pretty regularly recommending it. I am sure there are other elements which could be considered insensitive, but that would have been pretty egregious. However, it also really didn't seem in-line with the values of the people I knew involved in Ars' creation and continued development, which also drove me to look. We can't address a problem we don't know about, and what was suggested was a pretty big problem, even if it was historical. It also would have fundamentally shifted perceptions of people involved in the game's creation; it was a question I, personally, really needed resolved.
Thank you again for your response. I appreciate it.
-Ben.
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