Tremere "no sigil" issue

IMO, this has an impact on, for example, item creation: Knowing they won't equal a Verditius, Tremere magi cooperate. Thus, Tremere artificers tend to be generalists, or focus on a few arts, but all have high scores in Magic Theory and good Leadership. This allow them to reach, working as a group, huge lab totals, and thus make better, or more, items :sunglasses:

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... good point, but the lab assistance is probably used to make better items. Nothing to compete with Verditius artisanage, but powerful effects for the martial house.

When they make more items, it has more to do with their library of lab texts, which they happily lend to more junior members to stock their agents.

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My reasoning is that the Tremere are politically sensible, so in Stonehenge they will allow juniors to have their sigil long enough to pass the ceremony. Why wouldn't they do that? Just because a junior Tremere is allowed to brandish their sigil doesn't mean they hold it.

I think the main point of the sigil system in Tremere is to establish block votes and who has the power to determine how the block will vote. The physical object is quite minor to that. (Remember that any member of House Tremere can always get their sigil and its votes back, and the only penalty is that they will have to leave the house. At least officially.)

As a side thought, I am quite prepared to believe that the rule for Stonehenge Tribunals was introduced in an attempt to annoy House Tremere and make their lives a bit harder. Smells of Tytalus to me.

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I think there's a social-political aspect here.

Magi of Tremere consider the concentration of sigils to be more an advantage than a hindrance. The house has leverage that it otherwise would not because the younger magi proxy their sigils to their older and more experienced magi. They are willing to act in unity in order to gain power.

This seems quite medieval to me, although there are modern parallels.

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I think TimOB has really hit the nail on the head here.

A caveat. I am not a medieval scholar, so if the more educated out there say I got this wrong, oops. Democracy is not a big thing. I imagine there are some Oligopolies with a ruling council, some merchant houses maybe, but it is uncommon.

Deferring to ones elders who are more experienced is the common situation. If anything, the Order not requiring people to do something to earn their sigil is the weird event.
I could imagine a house rule that magi can't vote until they are 50, or until they have started training an apprentice, or something similar, as normal.

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Why would they do that? They could just as well have a bunch of junior Tremere trail the senior ones, with the senior ones doing all the talking and negotiating, and the junior ones waiting on them. Not being able to participate in the tribunal is annoying for the players, but appropriate for the characters.

Since voting is public, it would make even more sense to just let the junior magi keep their sigil (they will vote the way they are told), and present their parens with a fixed arcane connection. So useful if they get lost on a mission, and it lends more weight to the hierarchy. But I don't want to house rule something that is so central to the setting.

Absolutely, but the aspect of OP was player-emotional. Does the Tremere PC feel balanced compared to the other PCs in the game?

Two reasons.

  1. Professional development. The juniors have to take part in tribunals to learn how to manage their sigils when they earn them.
  2. Quorum. Now I have not the foggiest idea how the quorum rule works with Tremere blocks, so it may not be a real issue. Also, it is not obvious that Tremere wants the tribunal to be quorate in Stonehenge, so maybe they would rather hide the sigils.

Then again, the 4ed description of Tremere in Stonehenge has been described as incompatible with the 5ed setting, so Stonehenge is a poor example when we discuss how Tremere works in practice.

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How often voting is done, and what help Tremere provide, is essential to the balance issue.

For a starting magi the SG can say Tremere gives support. The magi could request a summae, and assuming it's not ridiculous (No Q 21, L11 summae, but Q21, L6 or Q 16, L12 could be acceptable), it would be sent.

The young Tremere gets a heavy wound. The message goes around, and if he's willing to pay the vis (or accept a vis debt), the healer Tremere with 7 league stride shows up and heals him. Saving potential multiple lost seasons, and of course saving the magi's life, as a few bad rolls, and that heavy wound becomes life threatening again.

If the game goes long term, the magi becomes the senior Tremere holding sigils. The magi is part of the backroom deal where the voting block of the Tremere actively put all their votes together, winning multiple votes against the more fractured elements of the order. If the players like Magi politics, Tremere is the way to go.

These 3 examples show the potential benefits which offset the obligations to Tremere.

I have never played a Tremere, nor Tytalus (I'm not being devil's advocate here), I'm just pointing out the benefits as I see it.

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Depending on the SG, the Tremere player may have more overall influence than their covenant magi, despite the sigil voting constraint.

"O magus superior, my covenant is in conflict with another [description of problem] and it delays my duty as assigned [whether it does or not]. This matter comes before the Tribunal. May I solicit your [ten sigil voting bloc] aid?"

If the superior thinks the case aids Tremere without seeming overbearing, they may well throw all his votes in favor of the player's covenant. If not, other aid can be forthcoming. This can be without any direct compensation: House Tremere is not a trading hall. Of course, the magus may want a favor from the covenant next year.

How does that balance feel?

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One word, hypothetical.

I never argued against this, and it is exactly the kind of Tremere I would like to play. It may or may not make it through Session Zero. Even when it does, it is not necessarily easy to implement at the table.

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I think also lobbying sigil holder(s) is a reasonable political task for young tremere, including on issues that don't effect them so directly. Just because you don't hold your own sigil doesn't mean they won't listen to you(though some might not). All else being equal, I assume a sigil holder is more likely to take the council of another tremere than a Maga from another house, this basically just gives political wrangling a different flavor for them and I think that's farily positive, it does require some extra work on the part of the sg though

I like Loke's reasons. I also don't see a downside for the house. You have more people able to speak in the Tribunal. Sometimes you'll want a junior mage to do the talking: maybe it's in their area of expertise, or maybe they are representing their covenant against another. It's all staged and pre-planned within the house, of course.

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Thanks everyone for your generous input. You have convinced me that the Tremere are balanced. I'll summarize what I take away from this discussion regarding a Tremere not holding his own sigil:
-You can design a starting Tremere whose parens has passed, and who is thus holding their own sigil (and those of his filii).
-Tremere operate as a power bloc, which benefits young Tremere if their goals are aligned with those of the house.
-Tremere are playing the long game. Right after gauntlet, you are at the bottom of the house, but you can rise higher than in other houses.

Regarding the other singularities of the house, I would say that
-Material support and tasks for the house are supposed to balance each other out.
-Tremere may have a second magical focus, in addition to the minor focus on Certamen.

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Note that this is a House rule, not something supported by the books.

I would say, however, that a few Tremere may have a different focus. For example, if they have Mythic Blood it would make sense for them to have their innate Minor Magical Focus instead of the focus in Certamen. But this should remain an exceptional case.

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Meh. Magical Focus is a boring virtue anyway. Stock up on Potent Magic instead!
More flavour (though usually less power).

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The boredom of Magical Focus is subject to house interpretations. They are hardly balanced, with some canon examples considerably more easily exploited than others. There is a school of players thinking that everybody should have a minor MF tuned for power gaming. If the troupe is restrictive with these, the MF is not that much more powerful than other virtues. Major is expensive, and minor is narrow-minded.