Tribunal Books

Games Discussion Ars Magica
61

Yummy. For me I would say Jerbiton, Bonisagus and Flambeau, because they are the paradigmatic magus that interacts with society, the psycho that does his stuff and the lab rat. oversimplifying, but it is how they are perceived in broad strokes. None of them needs toe OoH (or other magi, for that matter) to exist at all to ply their role.

Been there, done that. The OoH works quite well with smaller traditions. A large Exmisc-like Order. We did it by removing hermetic Magic from the setting, though, so somewhat more extreme (and more complicated rules wise) than just dropping the houses. The houses as written do not make much sense to us. They are not political affiliations, they cannot affect the life of their magi much and they do not really encompass pan-european magi since tribunals beat them hands down in their influence on the local magi. CDalling them "traditions" more than houses would be better IMO. It is not a big issue in any case :slight_smile:

OTOH I find houses extremely useful when starting to play because they are basically predefined in their roles. And there are only 12 templates to choose from, so it offers diversity but not too much choice when selecting a magus to play. That is very useful for new players: The lab rat, the policeman, the messenger, the soldier, the faeries guy, the animal guy, the smith, the weirdo, the the killer, the jerk, the social guy, and the outcast. All oversimplifications and the setting offers much more than that, but as a starting list of "things to do with your magus", they are clear and easy to chose from. :slight_smile:

been there, done that as well. Not because it is difficult, but because it does not make a lot of sense and we do not like the current explanations regarding faeries and vitality. We have 2 realms, the Physical (Legend) and the Soul (Divine) realms. We did that because we did not agree about the way faeries are described in Ars, and because the line between fae and magic is extremely blurry in the current setting. Current RAW describes a lot of faerie beings that could be magical and magical beings that could be faerie with the same ease, so it is not a big problem dumping them all together. The fae-magic realm difference is a merinita internal debate IMS. Having done that, we went heretic and detemined that God is the ultimate boss of demons as well, so we dumped both demons and angels in the same realm from a hermetic magic point of view: hermetics are affected equally by both realm auras (and in our saga they cannot tell the difference between the 2 either), so their theory says that they are the same. Demons and angels would not agree though, but neither would a librarian dragon and a pixie while being told that they are both faeries ad basically the same thing.

Not necessarily. We find that mechanics in 5th edition are over the top in cumbersomeness, and some of the setting definitions are weird. it is the best edition, yes, but not all fits what our troupe finds palatable. I assume most other troupes have similar issues. We have subsystems and extra rules for everything. The setting is rich, but the way some issues have been solved are not ideal in my troupe's opinion, so they get changed. A lot of people does that. And we are all still playing in Mythic Europe, the best setting ever. :slight_smile:

62

You sum the issue up quite nicely.

I would add just one thing here: typically it is the appointed alpha-storyguide, who gets saddled with the task to collect all the player requirements for the covenant, the kind of adventures desired and loathed, the fun and the tedious problems, the desired development of the setting and so on. Then she sits down with the Core book, and perhaps some HoHs and Tribunal books, to figure out a good campaign proposal to the troupe. And it is her who can blunder -
(1) by misunderstanding the troupe,
(2) by prioritizing her own likes and dislikes over those of the others,
(3) but also by overlooking Tribunal features.

What could be done about (3)? It would help a newbie alpha-storyguide a lot to have some one to two page summaries specifically for campaign planning of all the Tribunal books available - so she can choose which book to buy, or whether to just stick to Semita as a covenant (atlas-games.com/pdf_storage/Semita.pdf) and make up its surroundings year by year. Any volunteers for such summaries?

Cheers

63

For once I find myself perfectly in agreement with One Shot. I think it's a great idea.
I would suggest some communal editing of the summaries, so the reader can get a more "balanced" opinion.
Also, I think it would be important to make them fairly structured, with a set of "standard" sections present the same order and addressing the same issues in each summary.

64

I would put Stonehenge as the vanilla tribunal. I can not recall any special rules or changes to the code that players really have to deal with.

65

The problem with HTM is that it is 4th edition, and according to the official line, not canon anymore. But yes, it is as vanilla as it gets and perfectly usable in 5th if you feel like it.

66

Yes, some kind of wiki would be nice. For its organization I would still attend some input from Atlas Games or authors, though.

Yep.
Here is a first draft - fully up for discussion - for such a structure:

Summary of Tribunal Book for Campaign Planning

  1. Territory of the Tribunal
    1.1 Geography
    1.2 Mundane Organizations
    1.3 Important Magical Features and Inhabitants
    1.4 Important Divine Blessings
    1.5 Important Infernal Plots
    1.6 Important Faerie Games

2 The Order - Tribunal Organization
2.1 Effects on Individual Magi
2.1.1 Obligations
2.1.2 Monitoring
2.1.3 Positions and Advancement
2.2 Effects on Covenants
2.2.1 Requirements for Founding
2.2.2 Requirements for Continued Existence
2.2.3 Political Involvement (Hermetic)
2.2.4 Political Involvement (Other)
2.2.5 Potential for Development
2.2.6 Important Plots for Campaign
2.3 Factions in the Tribunal
2.3.1 List
2.3.2 Interactions and Conflicts

3 Support in the Book Specifically for
3.1 Character Development
3.2 Covenant Development
3.3 Campaign Development

4 Interaction with Other Tribunals
4.1 List
4.2 Potential Stories

5 Miscellaneous Remarks

Of course, spoilers should be avoided throughout.

Cheers

67

On the tribunal summary thing - I want to note I started something somewhat similar in Which Tribunal to Choose ? over at Project Redcap.

redcap.org/page/Which_Tribunal_to_choose

It's based on explaining the types of stories the covenant supports best, rather than concretely summarizing it. And It can certainly use expansion, especially in missing tribunals. So if anyone wants to help out...

Reagrdless, I suggest you use the Project Redcap wiki for your work. It's the best place (except perhaps Atlas Games' own site) for this IMO. This will provide you with a wiki that is also seen by many other Ars fans that may wish to contribute or later edit the work, and will allow easy linking between this content and other similar content (like the entry above, or the entry for each tribunal); and it's all in a site that already has Atlas' permission to use its content and images.

Just one thing about your summary suggestion - it appears to me, from the above outline, that your content may be so detailed as to discourage people from buying the book. Be careful not to give too much detail. Hurting Atlas' sales is not in our long term interest, even thought helping players/groups pick a tribunal and play in it certainly is.

Regarding the project to map all magi, covenants, plots and so on - I think that's a rather extensive index and I would ask Atlas before doing/posting that. Atlas may want to host it on their site, like the do the Spell Guidelines and so on.

68

Thanks for the very welcome offer. And you listed the alternative we might not have, or might have to follow, too.

I don't think a focused, structured summary of one to two pages would prevent anyone interested in a Tribunal book from buying it. Anyway, the extent of that summary could not go beyond the scope of a review in a fanzine.

Whose project is that? :slight_smile:

Cheers

69

Bonisagus. I thought that one was obvious. :open_mouth:

70

Fair enough.

71

Oh, I see. Didn't notice that before.

Cheers

72

I defy anyone sticking by this outline to produce a 1-2 page document, unless you're writing 2 sentences on each bullet point. The outline alone is almost a page long.

I second the endorsement of Project Redcap's "Which Tribunal to Choose?" page. It's got a lot of solid content already, but also has many Tribunals with no entry at all. There's work to be done there, for someone who wants to contribute.

73

Two lines per bullet would be roughly my proposal indeed.
Bullet points of little importance for a Tribunal (say, Divine Blessings for GotF) might be omitted completely in the summary - thereby implicitly stating that there are no plot hooks which the alpha-storyguide has to at least consider before proposing this Tribunal.
Issues important for a Tribunal (say, Gilds or Forests in GotF) might get a somewhat more thorough treatment, though.

Cheers

74

Actually, yeah. It all proceeds from there, so House Bonisagus seems like a good baseline Vanilla.

75

Apart from them being able to take another magus' apprentice.

76

I think there is a difference between forcing a choice of house and then thinking that your character just doesn't care about the house and picking a tribunal for the entire group and have the entire group have to live with that choice.

To go with that analogy. If you are playing a Tremere or a Mercere or a Guernicus there are expectations of the house, but for Flambeau, Tytalus or Jerbiton, these are more expectations than rules. The new tribunals seem to fit into the more constricting level.

77

Well, there is the fact that no Redcaps live with the covenant, which might bum some players who wanted to play a mundane Redcap.

I consider having the Tribunal a year later than the rest of the Order useful , since it allows players to visit other Tribunals.

78

Tremere is the only real restrictive one. Guernicus explicitly is about not bothering other magi. That is sort of their whole reason for supporting the code. What it really means to be in that house is that you are expected to investigate crimes, and then tell the Tribunal. And you are respected. Pretty cool huh? House Mercere Magi, (unless you are a Redcap) are basically liked by the mail men. Also you are expected to have lots of children. And once every seven years spend a season [strike]spying on other covenants, and gathering a huge pile of arcane connections[/strike] delivering mail. Not a huge deal.

79

Here's an updated proposal:

Summary of Tribunal Book for Campaign Planning

1 Territory of the Tribunal
1.1
1.2 <Mundane Organizations<
1.3
1.4
1.5
1.6

2 The Order - Tribunal Organization
2.1 Effects on Individual Magi
2.1.1
2.1.2
2.1.3
2.2 Effects on Covenants
2.2.1
2.2.2
2.2.3 <Political Involvement (Hermetic)>
2.2.4 <Political Involvement (Other)>
2.2.5
2.3 Factions in the Tribunal
2.3.1
2.3.2
2.4 Important Plots for Campaign

3 Specific Support in the Book
3.1
3.2
3.3

4 Interaction with Other Tribunals
4.1
4.2

5 Miscellaneous Remarks

Notes:
No spoilers. Brevity and precision.
just define a paragraph's content, and are omitted in the text.
The text should have on average two lines per bullet point. Bullet points irrelevant for planning a campaign in a Tribunal shall be dropped.

Cheers

80

Where do you find these people, and can I borrow some?